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Brian Edwards Media

Why Absolutely No Apology Was Due To Amethyst Staladi Or Her Parents

Posted by BE on November 12th, 2010

Pic: Kent Blechynden/Dom Post

I hadn’t intended to deal with the story about 14 year old Newlands College student, Amethyst Staladi, being told by dean Angela King to pull her skirt down because she ‘looked like a slut’. That was until I saw her mother, Kahira Marshall,  on One News last night telling the country that she considered Mrs King’s verbal apology a couple of days ago ‘doesn’t go far enough’ and that what she wanted was ‘a letter of apology to go on both Amethyst’s and the dean’s personal file’. At that point my blood began to boil.

Ms Marshall appears not to understand that when you enrol your child in any school you automatically accept the rules of student conduct set down by the school’s board, including any dress code which the school may have. Her daughter, Amethyst, has been flouting Newlands College’s dress code for some time. Acting Principal David Pegram noted that Amethyst had had ‘ongoing problems’ with her uniform, but that Mrs King had been very supportive of her. The dean had not been disciplined and would not be interviewed.

‘It was a sincere apology given by the member of staff and the apology seemed to be accepted in good grace by the student.’

But this was not enough for her mother or father, Michael Staladi,  who said that he wanted Mrs King disciplined: ‘If the kids step out of line they have to go to detention. So they should have the same standards for the adults.’

Or maybe a public stoning, Mr Staladi?   

Well, let’s look at the players in this mini-drama: a stroppy 14-year-old girl with behavioural, discipline and attendance issues who’s received previous warnings about breaching the school’s dress code; a highly professional teacher with an impeccable record, supportive of and popular with students, described by her colleagues as someone ‘who helps everyone really’. (The staff had sent her flowers because she was upset.)

So who needs to be taking a good look at themselves here – Mrs King or Amethyst’s parents?  Which would be more appropriate – teaching Amethyst a little respect for her teachers and for the rules of the school, or encouraging her to be a smart-arsed little bush lawyer, trumpeting her 14-year-old rights on television.

What extraordinary arrogance, what total inability to recognise your own contribution to your daughter’s difficulties allows this mother to demand that a formal letter of apology be attached to Mrs King’s and her daughter’s personal files, or her father to insist that the dean be disciplined? What purpose did they imagine it  would serve? To place a permanent stain on a  fine teacher’s record? To allow them to crow about how they had brought the dean down a peg?

 Rhetorical questions really.

My own view is that no apology of any sort was necessary. I know about teenage daughters. I know that they can dress and behave inappropriately, often provocatively. I’ve had calls from the headmaster. And if one of my daughters had come home and said to me that a woman teacher had told her to pull down her skirt because she ‘looked like a slut’, I would have said, ‘Well, she was perfectly right, wasn’t she? Don’t expect me to stick up for you.’

So if Amethyst did indeed ‘look like a slut’ when her skirt was riding up around her thighs, the proper thing, the responsible thing, the thing that was in her best interests, was to tell her so. To be upset by the word, she had to know its meaning. Is she such a sensitive plant that her ears would be offended by hearing it spoken?

Perhaps my favourite word in looking at any issue is ‘perspective’. Perspective has been lost in this matter. A kid was dressing inappropriately and was told so by a teacher. In seeking publicity for what happened, her parents have done their daughter and a fine teacher a disservice.

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144 Comments:

  1. and if the positions had been reversed and it was Amethyst telling Mrs King she ‘looked like a slut’ what would have been the schools reaction and your response to it?
    Perspective is always dependent on the view afforded by your position.

  2. 14 year-old daughters … oh, yes. Especially if they’re fourth formers (yes, I know, I’m supposed to say Year whatever).

    They do grow out of it, most of them.

    When I first read the story in The Dominion Post I couldn’t for the life of me see the ‘news’ in the story — stroppy teenage girl (what’s new?), affected outrage at Authority trying to enforce the rules (what’s new?), parental ranting. So what?

    And what of the effect of all this publicity on the teacher who appeared to be trying to get across a message to the girl.

    The newspaper this morning has an editorial that kind of restores some perpective to the matter.

    So, if or when Amethyst grows up and discovers that she’s not the centre of the universe, despite her parents, she might one day see Mrs King and what she was trying to tell her in a different light, and say ‘sorry, Miss’.

  3. If or when Amethyst grows up she may well have a deeper and more abiding resentment against her parents for saddling her with a name like that rather than a teacher who effectively told her to pull her socks up.

  4. How disappointing.

    The school has the right under our current law to give directions to students about how they dress. I don’t necessarily agree with their powers in this area, but that’s beside the point.

    I fail to see how senior teachers are entitled to apply gender- and sexually-loaded terms to pupils, regardless of their previous behaviour.

    Maybe an apology is enough, but no apology? We’re happy with people in positions of power calling troubled young teens ‘sluts’ and thinking that’s OK?

  5. Rules r rules, I knw quite a few students that attend newlands past and present, Why on Earth Should the teacher say sorry for speaking the truth, Yes the word slut should of not beenused but if my daughters were dress like that then i dont hav a dam problem with the teacher telling them that, Are they going to listen to there parents now a days, NO !!! , teens think they know beta than wot we did back in our time 10/20 years ago, Rules are Rules and the school has theres, U dont like it send ur kid to another school. Maybe Wellington High or Onslow College, She can dress that y if she wants then, But beware theres always trouble for the way u dress theses days

  6. So, are you saying that all women or girls who wear short skirts are either sluts or look like sluts? If you are not then you must accept that it is not acceptable to tell a girl that she looks like a slut just because of a short skirt.

    However if you actually believe that a short skirt is indicative of morality then I am surprised and to use an expression you have used, it is ‘sexist crap’.

    The whole business has been blown out of all proportion but the teacher was still wrong to say what she did. I am sure Judy’s skirt lengths are most conservative but if she chose to wear an ultra short skirt and someone told her she looked like a slut I doubt if you would be as understanding. I would object most strongly if a teacher told my daughter that she looked like a slut, not that I would have the entire incident exhibited for prurient review by the media.

    The teacher, like anyone in a position of authority should stick to enforcing the rules and not make moral judgements.

    • So, are you saying that all women or girls who wear short skirts are either sluts or look like sluts? If you are not then you must accept that it is not acceptable to tell a girl that she looks like a slut just because of a short skirt.

      See my response to Boganette.

      The teacher, like anyone in a position of authority should stick to enforcing the rules and not make moral judgements.

      The teacher was not making a moral judgement, she was making a judgement, first, in terms of the school rules and, second, on the social implications of dressing in an inappropriate way.

  7. “A kid was dressing inappropriately and was told so by a teacher.” – Really? Because from my “perspective” it looks like a 14-year-old girl was told she looks like a slut by a TEACHER.

    I mean do you go around telling young girls they look like sluts Brian? Are there some jobs where that’s OK? Can my boss tell me I look like a slut?

    Or is it her age? She’s 14 so that’s why it’s OK to say she looks like a slut. But it wouldn’t be Ok to tell a 25-year-old that?

    The job of a teacher is not to shame young women and tell them they look like sluts.

    And before you pull the ‘they said she LOOKS like a slut not that she IS a slut’: Well if I said that I think you look like a sexist douchebag would you be offended? Even though I didn’t specifically say you are a sexist douchebag? Do you think that being told you look like a slut is that different to being called a slut?

    Maybe you could list some outfits that you think are “slutty” Brian. And some that are not “slutty” (burqa maybe?). Then all the young women of New Zealand can adhere to your dress code so they don’t offend you.

    Those scary, scary teenage girls huh? With their short skirts and their knee-high socks! So provocative. We must make them cover up for the good of the nation!

    • Boganette: “Do you go around telling young girls they look like sluts Brian? Maybe you could list some outfits that you think are ‘slutty’, Brian. then all the young women of News Zealand can adhere to your dress code so that they don’t offend you. Those scary teenage girls, huh? With their short skirts and their knee-hich socks. So provocative. We must make them cover up for the good of the nation.”

      If you chose to present your argument in terms of irony and innuendo, I have no interest in replying to it. The only worthwhile sentence in this comment is “The job of a teacher is not to shame young women.” But it may be the job of a teacher to make it clear to a pupil, and in no uncertain terms, that, through their behaviour, they may be shaming themselves. And there had been an ongoing relationship between the dean, who is after all in loco parentis, and this young woman which had to do with two issues: her constant breaking of the shcool rules and the shortness of her skirt. So part of the job of a teacher may be to shame a pupil, not publicy, but in the pupil’s own eyes. And I have a pretty good idea that there will be tens of thousands of parents and one-time parents like me of teenage girls, who have stopped their daughters on the way out the door and said, “There’s no way you’re going out dressed like that. Do you want to look like a streetwalker? Finally, if Amethyst had in fact been shamed by the dean, how much greater must her shame have been when her parents brought it to the attention of the entire nation?

      And by the way, Judy agrees with every word I wrote. Obviously another male sexist douchebag in your world view.

  8. Hear hear, Ben!

    I am really, really surprised that Brian has been so near-sighted as to not view this incident in the wider context of societies endless need to sexualise women’s bodies, their actions etc and then proceed to shame those same women for said sexualisation.

    It’s tiresome and outdated. Aren’t we beyond this yet?

  9. These stories usually center around boys and haircuts!

    You enrol your child in a school, you accept the rules and having accepted them, you support the school in their enforcement.

    Of course there is always the option of standing for the Board of Trustees and accepting the huge amount of work that Board members undertake on a voluntary basis, that way you get to take part in setting the procedures for policy review as well as taking part in setting policy.

    Then again, that sounds way too hard – plus, you would miss out on your five minutes of fame!

  10. Sophie, you are quite right, but you never hear of a boy being told he looks like a ‘faggot’ (I use the detestable word purely as illustration) just because he has long hair and I am sure there would be outrage if any teacher made such a statment.

  11. I have no issue with a student being redressed about her lack of code conformance.I do agree with Ben when he considers the language did not properly address the issue.In this case the parents and teacher should have met and agreed on the best way to resolve the issue.I would consider the student and her parents agree to conform to the dress code and the teacher doesnt call her a slut again.The media interest does nothing to resolve both parties issues but plays the role of a big spoon.Neither party sets a good example of how to act appropriately.

  12. “The teacher should stick to enforcing the rules and not making moral judgements”. A silly position to take. The rules have no authority and no relevance if they are not based in a judgement of some kind as to suitable behaviour.

    In this case the moral underpinning is that to dress in a certain way marks you as something unattractive. Absolutely right! It marks you out as a ….. slut!

    I personally believe that you cannot eliminate by social conditioning the differences between male and female perceptions of appearance, sexuality and morality. Its regretable, but we appear hard-wired that way.

    The bottom line is that if my daughter is going to be perceived as a slut by what she wears it’s my job (and the school’s) to tell her. It is a reality of life and good on the school for recognising the fact and, more particularly, having the gumption to tell her directly.

  13. The teacher was quite brutal with his reproach. Describing a supposedly-impressionable schoolgirl as a “slut” was way too rich. It, probably, came about by accreted frustrations over a period of time — that is, she’s been “riding him”. But the way the parents reacted, says more about them, as parents, than it does about the teacher’s unfortunate choice of word.

    What responsible parents allows their young girl to go school, inappropriately dressed the way she was? Where is the standard of self-respect and the sense of dress-propriety that should have been instilled from any responsible parental upbringing? They really needed to give her a good hard slap, to discourage her from becoming a “slapper” later in life.

    Calling her “Amethyst” when it comes to this girl’s dress and behaviour, is almost the antithesis as to the origin and meaning of that word/name (Greek). “Lolita” would have been a more fitting name, if she’s going to behave like the rebellious vixen that she’s fast becoming. (And with the encouragement of both parents).

    If she were my kid, I wouldn’t put up with her flaunting willful ways. Test me out, and she’d be needing to wear an ankle-length dress or dark stockings to hide the red welts on her legs.

    • They really needed to give her a good hard slap, to discourage her from becoming a “slapper” later in life. Calling her “Amethyst” when it comes to this girl’s dress and behaviour, is almost the antithesis as to the origin and meaning of that word/name (Greek). “Lolita” would have been a more fitting name, if she’s going to behave like the rebellious vixen that she’s fast becoming. (And with the encouragement of both parents). If she were my kid, I wouldn’t put up with her flaunting willful ways. Test me out, and she’d be needing to wear an ankle-length dress or dark stockings to hide the red welts on her legs.

      Irrelevant and gratuitously offensive, Merv. I would want to dissociate myself from all of that.

  14. Oh, “him” is actually a “her”.

  15. Oh I see. She wore a short skirt so she should be ashamed and as a parent you think it’s your job – or the job of a teacher – to make sure she feels that shame.

    Why exactly should she feel ashamed for wearing a short skirt Brian?

    I have no doubt that there are parents out there who are shocked by what their daughters wear (hell maybe some are even shocked by what their sons wear – wouldn’t that be weird?). I suppose it’s about how they react to that. If you call your daughter a slut or a whore for wearing a short skirt maybe you need to think about why you view skirts that way. When they are in fact – just skirts. And your daughters are in fact human beings.

    Still – I am amazed that people are so comfortable with publicly saying it’s OK for a teacher to tell a young girl she looks like a slut.

    Oh and Brian – I said you *look* like a sexist douchebag. By your reasoning on Twitter – that is not the same as calling you a sexist douchebag. Maybe you feel like a sexist douchebag and that’s why you mis-read what I said?

    And I’m intrigued by your comment “the social implications of dressing in an inappropriate way”. What exactly are the “social implications” of dressing in an inappropriate way Brian? And what exactly is “inappropriate” to you?

  16. Boganette – are you a 14 year-old fourth former wagging school today?

  17. If that’s what you’re looking for Paul, maybe you should seek help.

  18. Brian, once again the temperature of the discussion here appears to have been raised by reactionary, uninformed contributors- the sort that react to headlines rather than the background to issues.

    These same people beat a path to the principal’s office on a regular basis. They never seem to be able to accept that their little darlings might just be in the wrong occasionally.

    They are the same body who are baying for the introduction of National Standards, but deliver children to the gate in a less than fit state to learn and then look forward to bashing the profession for failing their children.

  19. Boganette – very good rejoinder.

  20. Yeah, Paul: that was a “venomous spit in the eye”.

  21. Pull your pants up, you look like a f****t.

    Pull your pants up, you look like n****r.

    Pull your skirt up, you look like a slut.

    Now. If this was in regards to the first to examples, would you be saying the student subjected to the derogatory, offensive language was just being a silly and stroppy? Or is just cos this is about a girl that you feel the need to pull the hysterical card?

    Also teachers enforce rules. The rules are the rules. Its not about the KID, its about the rule. Its bad form to personalise it.

  22. Think of how retarded the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

    Sent from my Android phone

  23. why should this have been on the news? maybe it was such a national shame and slight because the mother and girl work tirelessly for the school?maybe amethyst is a mentor for her peers? maybe she is a model student?maybe she doesn’t mock teachers or love getting one over on them? yes -that’s it. her mum or dad are hard working school board members who care for their school community and their daughter. a daughter who inadvertently hitched her hem on one solitary day, was relentlessly harrassed by the evil teacher. a teacher who, incidently, is under no pressure in her job – as in this day and age, all students want is the chance of a scholastic education.poor wee innocent amethyst.and to say the word slut. one recoils in horror as it is a word no teen would ever, ever, ever utter.

  24. OK, Brian here’s a totally non-ironic rhetorical question for you. What would be your response if I walked into a meeting, and suggested your wife should go home and find an outfit that made her look a little less “slutty”?

    Yes, a school is perfectly entitled to set — and enforce — uniform standards. But Ms. King was supposed to be the grown-up professional in this equation. Anyone teacher who can’t express themselves, or deal with stressful situations, without resorting to vulgar and obscene insults isn’t my idea of a “fine teacher”. Certainly not someone I want anywhere near my children.

    As you say, Brian, it’s about perspective. I expect adults to behave accordingly.

    Perhaps you’d like to apply that “perspective”, Brian.

  25. So Judy agrees with what you wrote. If someone is gratutiously offensive to her by saying she looks like a slut I hope she will take it in the spirit with which it was intended.

    I have no problem with the schol enfrcing the rules. I have many problems with teachers makng offensive comparison. Where would you like to draw the line; “you look like a tart, whore?” As CC points out it would most certainly not be acceptable to say “you look like a n….r” (we are ven afraid to write the word.

    • So Judy agrees with what you wrote. If someone is gratutiously offensive to her by saying she looks like a slut I hope she will take it in the spirit with which it was intended.

      Here’s how this form of argument works, Ben, and I’m addressing not just you but several other people commenting on the post. You move the argument away from what actually took place and replace it with extravagant and irrelevant analogies. You then say, ‘How would you like it if someone called Judy a slut? Or how would you like it if someone said to a Maori in your hearing, You look like a nigger? These analogies advance the argument not one iota.

      I’m going to assume that the sequence of events was something like this. Amethyst has been called into the dean’s office on several occasions to talk about her attitude, her absenteeism, her breaking of the rules, including her persistent refusal to obey the dress code. The dean, from everything I have read about this, has tried to reason with her and to help her fit in better with the school’s requirement of pupils, but has not succeeded. She finds herself talking to Amethyst again about the length of her skirt. I’m going to assume that the thrust of it is that it isn’t a good idea when you’re 14 to let the world see your pants every time you kneel down or bend over. You may, wittingly or unwittingly, be giving the wrong impression. These two have had this conversation several times, always in private. The dean is fulfilling the role not only of disciplinarian but of counsellor. She says to Amethyst something like, ‘For heaven’s sake, girl, pull down your skirt. you look like a slut’. No doubt there was an element of frustration here. But neither the dean nor this girl deserved the public exposure which was guaranteed by her parents’ subsequent actions.

      I’m happy for people to disagree with me on this. But it would be nice if that disagreement could be expressed without preposterous analogies or barely disguised hints that to take the position I and others have taken somehow suggests an unhealthy or repressive approach to the topic.

  26. Another piece of “perspective”, Brian. I’ve done an unscientific straw poll of the (female) secondary teachers of my acquaintance. None said they would accept an oral apology from a student who called them a “slut” or “slutty” as the end of the affair.

    • Another piece of “perspective”, Brian. I’ve done an unscientific straw poll of the (female) secondary teachers of my acquaintance. None said they would accept an oral apology from a student who called them a “slut” or “slutty” as the end of the affair.

      I don’t suppose they’d be too happy if a student called them ‘a stupid bitch’ either. Students are expected to show respect to teachers. They can expect respect in return, but are likely to forfeit that respect if they persistently refuse to obey the rules. Teaching has become an increasingly difficult and dangerous job in this country. One reason may be the shifting balance of power that has occurred between teachers and pupils, fed in no small part by the attitude that the student’s rights are paramount.

  27. how old are you all? we’ve just been watching t.v. and t.v.1 sports just was saying how reporters couldn’t think what to ask tiger woods and my 15 year old son offered”tell him he’s a slut” and we, as a family, laughed.
    look at their facebook, watch jersey shore and every other teen programme.slut is tame.
    the teacher made a mistake. she apologised.
    but folks, live in today.
    i think back years ago. (80s?)i did an aerobics class in my grey flannel tracksuit for weeks.i was always behind this guy. then one day my sister in law said there was an aerobics clothes sale on and i came out with black elastic pants and some electric green stretchy thing that went up my bum like a g-string. well- that guy in front of me -who never said a boo to me the whole time i’d been going to aerobics -turned round and smiled and talked to me. what you wear does make a difference.did i look like a slut? who knows. i thought i looked fashionable- but i did feel a little adventurous.

  28. I hadn’t seen this news topic till reading your blog.
    While a very short dress is rarely appropriate & even against rules.

    Name calling (which is essentially what the teacher stooped to) to get the child to comply is hardly appropriate or respect worthy behavior is it?

    Rather than learning to respect her teacher a better result must be that she must feels an unwavering sense of support & trust of her parents. Doesn’t every parent want the strongest bond possible with a teen?

    Slut is such a negatively sexualized term used against women that when used by a teacher to encourage compliance is so wrong on many levels. And this from a supposedly good teacher, how do the bad ones speak to girls her push the boundaries?

    It’s not the skirt but the highly charged sexist language that should be under the spotlight. We all expect bad behavior from teens not from teachers. Wearing a short skirt doesn’t make a girl a slutsir make her look like one. No matter how painfully frustrating a teenager is they shouldn’t be called sexually demorallising names by a good teacher or any teacher. A simple verbal sorry doesn’t cut it, if the victim feels aggrieved.

    • A simple verbal sorry doesn’t cut it, if the victim feels aggrieved.

      ‘The victim’! ‘A simple verbal sorry doesn’t cut it.’ But if you read the reports carefully, you’ll see that ‘the victim’ was initially quite satisfied with the apology. It was her parents who weren’t. From your moral ivory tower you want a very fine teacher to be more than that; you want her to be a saint.

  29. I think the word slut originates from slatternly or slovenly meaning the person is habitually negligent in their appearance. If you read the facts, this young person appears to have built a record of “on going problems with her uniform”, thus she has developed a habit of slovenly appearance. Technically, this teacher is correct.
    @ Boganette – school rules are enforced to maintain conformity within a school community, not to be undermined by anti-authoritarian parents and their off spring. It really is a black board jungle out in the play ground these days, and it appears teachers have few tools left to maintain safety in the play ground.
    Final word – the mother is really quite thoughtless. This didn’t need to played out in the national media. There are other avenues available to parents in these situations when dealing with school authorities.

  30. Can someone please explain to me why it is perfectly acceptable for a teacher to call a student a ‘slut’?

    Brian I thought that you would be better than this. Quite frankly the slut comment was absolutely unneeded and the legitamite issue could have been better handled by the teacher concerned.

    This country is becoming nastier and nastier every day.

    • Brian I thought that you would be better than this.

      I don’t need to be patronised by you, Millsy. How wonderful to be able to set such high standards of behaviour for other people, when you are not a teacher dealing with difficult and intransigent kids.

  31. Alex: That’s weaksauce. Leave the archaic 14th century, no longer known by 99% of people, meaning out of it. I find uniforms in general to be slovenly, ill fitting and cheap looking. Let’s be realistic here, the trash talking teacher meant slut in the “loose woman” sense.
    Hope that helped, dear.

    Slut shaming is not an appropriate teaching tool.

    And as for short skirt = slut talk here. Illogical but thanks for the head’s up as I passed upward of 20+ ” dressed like a slut” examples on the way to work this morning. Their skirts were shorter than Amethyst’s. Oh the humanity. Must warn them tomorrow lest their teachers let loose a warning with a side order of well worn misogynism. Protect them from themselves!!!

    And Merv, what utter tripe. And how delightful for you to incorrectly dissect her name and try to take a potshot at this child’s sexuality. Go, you! For the record, the name Katherine (later meaning) or Chastity would make more sense in your example. Amethyst would sound more ironic on a drunk. And you are right on one point, Lolita would be fitting given it’s the traditional pet form of Lola (a nickname for Dolores) and therefore would translate as Very Little Mary Of Sorrows. I’m figuring this 14 year old girl is pretty bloody sad right now given the horrendous filth being spewed about her.

  32. the parents could have dealt with this mistake-this word- within the school- but the parents wanted this teacher regionally and nationally shamed even though the teacher was highly upset, and sincerely apologised for her error. it became about vengeance.
    now millsy- that’s nasty.

  33. It’s weird how I can take of my slutty school uniform and change into my short sports skirt or one-piece bathing suit for Phys.Ed and not be slutty. When is my exposed skin slutty or not slutty? It’s confusing. So many rules…it would be easier to just wear a burka. At least then no one would tell me I was “asking for it”. Being a girl sucks. I don’t like this world much.

  34. No more nasty than a teacher calling a student a slut. Come on ‘bje’ out with it, why do you think a person in power like a teacher should be entitled to call a 14 year old girl a slut?

    Do you think that teachers should be able to call their pupils all sorts of nasty names and get away with it? Or why not just bring back corporal punishment and just make it OK to thrash the crap out of her?

  35. no. i don’t think teachers should call students sluts because it is in the realm of put downs, which are counter productive to teaching – but teachers, like us all, make mistakes.
    stick to the point millsy – one word “slut”- not anything else, is what we’re talking about.

  36. Crikey Brian, I’m not sure how you and Judy would go visiting Japan and seeing how ALL the girls dress for school over there….. unbelievably short skirts, false eyelashes etc, so I guess it kind of depends on how you culturally view short skirts as uniforms. I know I used to hitch up my gym frock, lots of us did, and we went to Catholic schools, but I wasn’t a slut. What is a slut by the way? Are you viewing it as a female who is deliberately leading men on? Hmmm.

    This is not really as simple as your initial response suggests. I agree about your sentiment on the mother though, as I think she missed a deeper point; the constant pressure of sexualisation on young girls right through to middle age basically.

    It’s not helpful or educational to be classified as a slut by a teacher. If she was breaking the uniform standards, then she should have been sent home with instructions not to return until she complied, not labelled with an inappropriate sexual slur.

  37. Let me see Millsy::
    1. Because she was an obnoxious litle pain.
    2. Because she wasn’t called a slut but told she looked like one.
    3. Because the little darlings are not that easily damaged.
    4. Because she needed reminding that the rules have a purpose.
    5. Because it was true.
    6. Because while civility is good its wasted on teenagers.
    7. Because life is not as black and white as armchair commentators like to think.
    8. Because everyone has a breaking point.
    9. Because teenagers need to learn compliance more than teachers and parents need to practise civility.
    10. Because if it’s the thin edge of the wedge and corporal punishment is next, some of us are all for that too.

  38. Evidently Tony you are one of those men who think women in short skirts are fair game. You want to be careful with your comments; we might start to believe you sound like a sexual predator.

  39. BJE, if I make a mistake at work, I am spoken to by my supervisors. And I think that the teacher needs to be reminded by her supervisors that calling a student a slut is unacceptable.

    There are plenty of other ways that she would have dealt with Amethyst without calling her that name. There are thousands of other teachers in this country who have dealt with rebellious third formers without resorting to name calling.

    Quite frankly the support for this teacher on this blog (and elsewhere) is disturbing, I dont think that we should be encouraging nastiness and name calling.

    And personally, if a woman is relaxed about calling a girl a slut, then it speaks volumes about her (perhaps she is jealous?)

  40. Tony, aren’t you a delightful ray of sunshine. Points 1-10 (particularly 5 – that’s just perverted, mate) are irrelevant.

    Let’s say this slowly now. It’s really easy, I promise. Slut shaming is NEVER an appropriate teaching tool.

    Next on the news agenda, a 14 year old school boy gets the slut shaming treatment for wearing his uniform pants low rider style. Oh, wait..

  41. Youre a really nasty person, Tony.

    A really Nasty person. It appears that you are OK to call a teenager a slut.

  42. Tell me tony, do you call your teenage daughter a slut?

    Edited to remove a highly offensive and defamatory comment. If you continue in this vein, Milllsy, I will ban you from the site.

    • Whoa up! Let’s just all take a deep breath and step back for a moment, because this is all turning very nasty.

      And let’s please remember that’s not what this site is about – it’s about rigorous debate, yes, but the protocol is to attack the argument, not the person.
      So, having been brought into this from both sides, occasionally quite unpleasantly, it’s time I spoke up for myself.

      A little history:
      At school we were made to kneel, and our uniform length was measured with a ruler: three inches above the knee or you got detention. We cycled home like maniacs and changed – into our calf-length skirts, because that happened to be ‘grown up’ fashion of the day. Go figure, kids.

      So what do I think about this? Some thoughts:

      Young girls want to conform to their peer fashions, they want to test out their powers on the male species and, as often as not, they have no idea what the opposite sex thinks or feels or imagines. They want to be accepted, admired and yes, desired – mainly they want to find out if they can be desirable. They play with fire without any conception of the possible consequences. Girls live in girls’ worlds, worlds largely driven by teenage imagination and fantasy. I love that. It’s the only time you get to do it.

      BUT – you need protection from yourself during this time of exploration, and that protection must come from parents and those in loco parentis, or you will surely end up hurt, damaged and bewildered at the very least. It’s not a pleasant job. Adolescents are impossible, even when you love them to bits, and controlling their behaviour is a nightmare task. I think secondary school teachers rank with the bravest people in our society, and the most idealistic. I couldn’t do it. And it would appear that lot of parents can’t do it either.

      I worry about the under-age, over-thin, under-clad and unprotected girl-children I see reeling in the streets late at night in Ponsonby and down-town Auckland. I imagine that their counterparts reel in streets throughout the country. I wonder why their parents aren’t strong enough to say ‘No’, to say, ‘Home by eleven’, to say ‘Not on your own’, to ground them if alcohol enters the scene outside family occasions. I wonder if anti-bureaucracy hasn’t made us timid and ineffectual.

      And I wonder about a society that has become obsessed with ‘rights’, with ‘respect’ – when those claiming the rights and the respect show none towards others, particularly those in authority. I worry about society’s general contempt for authority and the mana that engenders. The aftermath will not be pretty, and it will not be easily handled. A society needs rules and acceptance of those rules to function. That is what we have to teach our children – how a civilised society functions, and the behaviours that are required to keep it from descending into anarchy. OK, so that’s the far end of the spectrum, but I would invite those of you born a few decades ago to consider how far we’ve come and whether we are doing our children a disservice.

      This little girl has been done no favours by her family. I suspect her life will be made a misery by her peers, much to her surprise and that of her parents. So I’m going to resist adding further flames to this particular fire. However, as a model of what is happening in our society, as an illustration of trends of societal behaviour that we should be concerned about (not least the race to push one’s family into the tabloid media without heed of the damage that causes!) you would go far to find a case that looked more like a caricature of how the balance has shifted than this one.

  43. This relax attitude to putting teenagers down and calling them nasty names really sickens me. No wonder we have such a high youth suicide rate.

  44. you obviously didn’t see this on the tv news, the teacher was dealt with by the principal and board.
    refering to your last paragraph – it is not worth responding to.

  45. …but it is true…

    I am not really keen to live in a world of freedom for the wolves without protection for the sheep…

  46. Anyway Brian, I would have thought better of you than to call a 14 year old girl a slut?

    Edited. Gratuitously offensive.

  47. @ Tutu – you seem to have used a dollop of weaksauce youself..”Lolitta would be fitting given its traditional pet form of Lola(a nick name for Delores) and therefore would translate….The sad fact from all of this is that hopefully the parent will exercise her right and remove her daughter from Newlands College and enrol her in a new school. The staff at her new school are going to be very wary of their new student given the blaze of national publicity she will bring with her, thus disadvantaging her and preventing her from forming meaningful relationships with the teachers. These are some of the consequences of parents supporting their children in breaking school rules.

  48. Of course it is perfectly acceptable for a teacher to call a 14 year old girl a slut in the eyes of Alex? Come on Alex, why are you willing to support nastiness?

  49. No, Alex, that’s called humour and I just happen to love etymology. It’s a sad little hobby of mine.

    Perhaps my tone was more snarky that need be. I didn’t really take a huge issue with your post. Forgive me, I was trying to shake off the Merv cooties.

  50. Brian,

    I still think it is unacceptable for a woman teacher in a position of power to call a student a slut. Simple. And it is digusting how many people think that its OK. As I said before, it is no wonder teenagers are killing themselves, if their elders think they are just dirty sluts and whores.

    There are a million ways that a teacher could have dealth with this. Sending her home until she had taken down her skirt would have been the sensible option. Calling her a slut is not.

  51. So Brian, I suppose you want to bring back corporal punishment then?

    Quite frankly, I think that abuse of a pupil by a teacher is acceptable at all.

  52. Cheers Steelyke, your cultural parallel is right on … NZ schools abide by archaic traditions with no rational justification. Perhaps someone can explain why we insist on girls wearing dresses and boys wearing shorts? Totally irrational (and often cruel) and acting as an impairment to full physical participation in a young active life.
    Secondly, the sheer hypocrisy of displaying young women EVERYWHERE in micro skirts (TV, advertising, Christine Rankin, etc) and then objecting to a girls’ compliance with the apparent ‘social norm’ by implying she looks like a slut!
    And then there are: ‘Prussian’ haircuts for boys … women adopting the patrilineal naming system … and punitive traditionalists posing as intellectuals who never had an original thought in their lives.
    The most intelligent ‘uniform’ system I’ve heard of was at Makora College (Wairarapa) where the students could wear any combination of black, grey, red, or white (no patterns) and pupils could choose to wear trousers when it was cold. It cut the expense of pricey kilts and uniforms for parents, and the students always looked smart.

  53. Having rules and regulations is fine, but how do you propose to enforce them?

    Threats, intimidation and violence, calling girls sluts? How about taking jug cords to them, like the likes of Family First and the SST?

    Quite frankly if you want that sort of society, then might I suggest you go to Iran or Saudi Arabia, then little sluts like Amethyst can get a good stoning.

  54. You can deal with difficult kids without calling them sluts, who the hell are you think that just because someone is young they are suddenly exempt from any form of respect and dignity?

    Edited. Totally unacceptable personal abuse.

  55. Loved your post, Little Toot.

    Here’s another side to young Amethyst Staladi re: her stillborn brother http://www.thelostones.co.nz/?pg=stories&id=43

    It’s way off topic, Brian, sorry, and potentially upsetting for some, but given I’ve read (elsewhere, mind) that Amethyst must be some breed of bottom feeding, mouthbreathing, vicious hellion tramp loser.. well… it’s humanising.

    • Here’s another side to young Amethyst Staladi re: her stillborn brother http://www.thelostones.co.nz/?pg=stories&id=43

      Tutu – thank you for sending me this link. I don’t think it’s off-topic at all and I recommend it to readers of this post. But none of the offensive terms you refer to in your comment were used by me. Unfortunately this debate has now degenerated into hysteria and abuse.

      The post was not a critique of Amethyst, but of her parents, whose demands that a good teacher, who had already apologised for a comment she had made, should have to apologise again in writing, should have that apology placed on her permanent file and should be disciplined – those demands struck me as unreasonable, as did the parents making matters worse by bringing their daughter into the public spotlight. What has been lost in all of this is the context of a long-standing relationship between the dean and her charge, an on-going and supportive conversation of which this single word was merely a part. As I indicated in a response to someone else, I have had a not-dissimilar conversation with one of my teenage daughters on a number of occasions. The frankness of our exchange was an indication of the closeness of our relationship, and the aim to protect her from outcomes that she may not fully have understood. i suspect that was precisely Mrs King’s intention as well.

      Thanks again, Tutu.

  56. They can expect respect in return, but are likely to forfeit that respect if they persistently refuse to obey the rules.

    Nonsense, Brian. As I said, Ms. King was supposed to be the professional and the adult in this scenario. I’m sure parents and students sometimes find dealing with truculent and (in their view) unreasonable teachers enormously frustrating, but if you think obscenity is the way to deal with frustrating situations you should have a wee chat with the PPTA and its concerns around verbal and physical intimidation of its members. You might also want to ask your good pal Helen Clark, and ask her why her government regarded bullying as a serious issue for schools and the Education Ministry.

  57. Pretty much everyone agrees that the teacher’s name-calling of “slut” is totally inappropriate. But this has to be given some context, here. As mentioned, I’d guess, that the genesis of this goes some way back. This was not a one-off isolated case of a girl coming to school in a short dress. There are longstanding simmering attitudinal issues that frame the incident. This kid was out to test the elasticity of the school’s tolerance; and you can bet that her parents gave her their tacit — even, overt — support as to how the school was quashing their little darling’s expression of independence and expression.

    This cocky kid has been getting away with far too much for far too long. The parents have failed her. A bit of old-fashioned discipline might have produced a better behaving child.

    Hey, Tutu, got rid of my cooties, yet?
    Besides your “sad little hooby”, you do cut a lonely figure. And miserable.

    amethyst [am'ə­thist], noun a bluish violet quartz used as a gemstone, anciently supposed to prevent drunkenness; amethysts are believed to heal people and keep them cool-headed.

  58. No, your perv cooties have much cling.

    Do amethysts prevent the wearer from being slut shamed too? The name itself quite literally means “not intoxicated”. That’s it. Are you are famous marrow, Mervyn? Or just a perv, Merv?

    A lonely figure, not really, but that is one of the more well worn internet argument faults one can resort too. What’s on the cliche agenda next?

    Back to my “hooby” now!

  59. Good! You’re under the blanket and the light’s out?

  60. Oh, for heaven’s sake, Merv. Let’s get some “context” in the room, shall we? I’m a freelance writer — if I was in the habit of going off on obscenity-laced tirades at frustrating clients, accounts departments who regard due dates on invoices as vague suggestions and persons who have have turned not getting it into a fine art, I’d not only be unemployed but unemployable.

    I guess this requires repeating, again: But Ms. King is supposed to be the professional adult in this scenario. That also includes not flying off the handle when frsutrated. And don’t tell me that any teacher would put up with being called a “slut” by a parent or student, because I’ve got more than enough fertilizer for the garden. I guess your idea of “old fashioned discipline” doesn’t extend to teachers being held to basic standards of civility and professionalism.

  61. My previous comments were tongue in cheek – to some extent anyway. Yes I believe in civility. But I did raise two daughters – to my mind quite succesfully and hopefully to theirs as well.

    I hate the way double standards work against them, as well as all the other stuff people have referred to. But that is just the way it is. They need to know how the world operates and I need to help them with that. And bottom line – a single cutting comment from a teacher is not going to put a teenager in therapy. If it did, both my daughters would be there, courtesy of their very fallible Dad.

  62. This is not about a teacher telling a student that her clothing is not school appropriate. If it were, then the teacher would have said “Your clothing is not school appropriate” or “Your skirt does not conform to the school dress code.” Slut is a loaded term. It is a pejorative which humiliates women for their (perceived) sexual activity, which is common and lauded among men. You obviously have a problem with female sexuality if you think it is ever appropriate to tell someone they look like a slut.

    Calling someone a slut is not “highly professional” and it doesn’t change anything if everyone else thinks the world of her. Nice people don’t go about slut-bashing other people. Her Ms Congeniality award was voided.

    Everyone is entitled to their rights, even 14 year olds with short skirts. This event is an example of a pervasive problem in society in which humiliation of female sexuality is commonplace. That teacher abused her authority. She is a bully.

    Teenagers want to claim their identity, experiment with sexuality, and are beginning to become responsibly individuals – and yeah, that usually includes rebellion. Amethyst wasn’t hurting anyone and clearly she kept all of her primary and secondary sexual traits covered. A little irksome for the school authorities, probably. Justification for humiliating her publicly? Not a chance.

  63. yeah, shame on her mother for humiliating her publically.in reality on the telly(oxymoron?), the girl appeared really upbeat about the exposure. she was confident, as opposed to humiliated. she was expressive, smiling, could i say – smug?
    hey,boys have major hang ups too in their teens so don’t just hang ‘handle with care’ on girls.
    also,these days, teens use the word slut as fairly common language dumbed down from last generation’s deflowering slur. for girls and boys.
    teens have rights- but they also have responsibilities. kids at schools do wonderful things. they are stdent reps, sports leaders, library monitors. agreeing to school rules on enrollment is also a responsibity and could have avoided this claimed humiliation. but the librarians and student reps never ever make the telly news with their service and hard work.
    teachers have to deal with an amazing range of problems and if we do not walk in those shoes or do not know the exact run of events of this particular situation our offerings may not be fair. the teacher took full responsibility for her comments and was highly upset and apologised – much to the glee of the mother and daughter who loved the exposure and turned the screws further by wanting a written record of this unfortunate and, i’m sure, unintentionally blurted out word on the teachers file.
    so meg- you should be on the school’s next uniform design team. one that covers the nipples and fanny and we’ll be right. oh, and on the school board, organising sexual experimentation classes.(be well warned on that one, teachers. be a minefeild for accusation.) we send our kids to school to learn structured school subjects and make friends. we accept the rules and if our kids breach the rules we back the school. when we are unhappy with a particular issue, we see the person involved and sort it. if you don’t like the rules, try for the board. but that’s a thankless unheralded task,also.

  64. Judy, I wish to apologise to you since I was the one who brought you name into this argument. I had no intention of being offensive and if you feel I made my comments in a nasty way I am truly sorry. Brian may feel that my argument was false but I did think it a valid point to wonder how he would feel if someone he loved was insulted, and for that matter how you would feel, and that was the only reason for saying what I did. I agree that this blog is for rigourous debate and I do my best not to step over that line.

    • Brian may feel that my argument was false but I did think it a valid point to wonder how he would feel if someone he loved was insulted, and for that matter how you would feel

      Apology accepted, Ben, and thank you for being gracious.

      However, I couldn’t help but chuckle at part of your comment. With the abuse that is heaped on Brian (and occasionally myself) on this blog – and you only see the published comments, not the hair-raising stuff that isn’t published – I wonder if this isn’t irony. I would have succumbed to a nervous breakdown years ago if I allowed myself to be affected by cheap insults to either of us.

      When you’re married to a polarising broadcaster it doesn’t take long to realise that insult is substituted for argument only when someone is incapable of rational debate. Not really worth getting worked up about, is it? And yes, everyone steps over the line occasionally in rage or frustration – certainly I do! – but the thinkers in any conversation quickly regret and withdraw. That, and the inciteful thoughts of our commentators make the brickbats worthwhile – or we’d never do it!

  65. Coming to this very late, I read your piece and my immediate reaction was that you’d completely hit the nail on the head and perfectly expressed the obvious reaction of anyone with even a scrap of common sense or feel for the dynamics of everyday life. Well done. I am stunned that this has stirred up 75 comments and a slew of nonsense from a normally reasonably rational audience.

  66. As my old grandad would say…”if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck”……..I think the visuals of the girl on TV pretty much finishes that old saying!

    I am amazed at how some girls dress……and yep some look like sluts…cheap sluts at that! makes you wonder what the parents are doing letting their kids dress like hookers!!!!

  67. Sorry, but no. This teacher was way out of line.

  68. I had intended making no further comment but the contributions of Bill and Kerry (especially Kerry) are sufficiently irritating to warrant a response.

    From saying a woman looks like a slut it is a small step in the minds of many men to thinking she is a slut and if she is a slut she deserves what she gets.

    Before law reform it was common in rape trials to hear defence counsel use arguments such as, “members of the jury, Miss x was out by herself at 2am. She wore a revealing dress; short at the bottom, low at the top. Her underwear was provovcative, and what is more members of the jury, she was not a virgin. How was my client to know she was not up for a bit of slap and tickle”

    In the 21st century I thought we might have got past the stage of categorising women on the basis of their dress. Clearly Kerry is still lving in a time warp with her grandad when such views were the norm. Tony, Bill and Brian appear to be there as well. For God’s sake will you stop judging women by their appearance. A woman or a girl should be able to go out in a short skirt or a low cut blouse without being leered at and told she looks like a slut, whether her father or her teacher. All your anachronistic views are doing a peretuating this myth that certain classes of girls ‘deserve what they get”.

  69. I am not judging a woman (well girl) by her appearance. I am judging her, and more pointedly her parents, by their obviously immature and foolish behaviour. To get to the truth of this matter simply reread Brian’s post, or if that doesn’t get the fog to clear read the letters (there are several) from fellow pupils at Newlands College in today’s Dominion Post.

  70. It’s not the child who should be expelled, it’s her parents. (Which is usually the case)

  71. Hmmm, didn’t put that too clearly, perhaps: I mean that the parents are usually the problem.

  72. I didn’t get to see the item on TV, but I am a secondary school teacher and I know that it is unwise, unprofessional even,no matter how tempting, to use such pejorative terms when talking to students. It’s all about setting examples and modelling behaviour, and there are many other ways that the situation could have been resolved. No doubt the teacher involved was exasperated, and given that the situation seems to have been an ongoing one, she may have well have just let her guard slip. There are no rights or wrongs here, and as anyone knows who works with teenagers there are never any easy answers.

  73. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again…

    There ain’t enough money in the Universe to pay me to be a teacher. We expect the highest standards from our teachers as well as training our children to be respectful, educated, positive members of our society.

    In effect, we want saints who work miracles with children.

    All while (some) parents themselves flout laws; denigrate societal expectations; and raise their children in anti-social environments. Then they send their little “darlings” of to school and expect teachers to undo the first five years of poor socialisation (or often no socialisation) in the family home.

    Was it inappropriate for the teacher to use the term “slut”?

    Yes, it was. I don’t like it used to describe adult women because of it’s sexist, put-down connotations.

    Was it appropriate for the teacher to apologise?

    Yes, without a doubt.

    But here, I think the story should end. Because it’s obvious that the student in question has been disregarding her school’s policy on dress-code for some time.

    Will the student be apologising for that?

    Will the parents be apologising for not reinforcing the expectations of the school upon the child?

    Or is it all one-way? That the teachers have to be without fault and the students can get away with whatever they desire – with the parents turning a blind-eye to their mis-behaviour?

    We don’t have saints as our teachers. We have mortal human beings – people pretty much like you and me – who occassionally stuff up.

    Saints are more expensive to hire and you certainly won’t get them at $60,000 p.a.

    I know I wouldn’t do that job.

    Perhaps Ms Marshal might like to try?

  74. “A woman or a girl should be able to go out in a short skirt or a low cut blouse without being leered at and told she looks like a slut, whether her father or her teacher.”

    Ben – the point is that the school has rules against wearing ‘short skirt or a low cut blouse’. So no such right exists. Anymore than a male student has a right to wear, say, a gang patch to his school.

  75. Frank, I have never questioned the right of the school to make its own rules. However maknig rules does NOT entitle the school to say to one of its students “you look like a slut, faggot” or any other pejoratve term you choose to think of.

    That is my only argument. Of course pupils should abide by the rules.

  76. “Frank, I have never questioned the right of the school to make its own rules. However maknig rules does NOT entitle the school to say to one of its students “you look like a slut, faggot” or any other pejoratve term you choose to think of.”

    Correct. See my 13.24 post above.

  77. Typically I diverge but recently I drove past a heap of Nelson College kids (I think that was that name) and the kids wore no uniform other than that conforming to their peers. But with all the variations they looked proud, tidy and sort of grown up. So maybe rebelling against those dress code rules could be side-stepped with an enlightened approach to uniforms?
    And I reckon that the “slut” remark was wrong no matter what the provocation, but know it could sort of slip out and be immediately regretted -apologised for and move on.

  78. Mostly every girl at my school(Newlands College) wears their skirt above their knees, and about half of them wear their skirts way higher than Amethyst does. But Mrs King did not tell them they looked like sluts did she? No. Amethyst was upset, she felt picked on because Mrs King only told her specifically that she ‘looked like a slut’. Telling a student that they look like a slut is not acceptable, it’s the same as going up to a student that walks funny and saying ”hey, you walk like a gay guy so walk normally.” or going up to a disabled student and saying ”hey, you’re a retard.” it’s just something you don’t say. I personally like Mrs King and think she is a really cool teacher but when Amethyst told me what she said i couldn’t believe it. But this is not the first time a teacher at our school has said something like that. A friend of mine was messenger once and over heard a few teachers talking about a girl student who just got told off for their uniform and had just left the room. Amethyst is my friend and she doesn’t look anything like a slut, Mrs King should’ve said pull down your skirt it looks slutty not pull down your skirt you look like a slut.

    • Mostly every girl at my school(Newlands College) wears their skirt above their knees

      Thank for this helpful comment, Girl from Newlands College.

  79. I am saddened that this was a National news and Close up item. I am saddened that we can’t let the school, pupil and parents sort out this minor problem. I am saddened to observe that there is a 4 million + jury out there. But what an amazing reply for a simple word as “slut”, this is art.

  80. Blimey !!!, I’m so glad I didn’t allow myself to get involved in this debate. 90 Comments (so far…!) – aggression, hysteria, wild accusations, whys, wherefores, do-you-mind-if-I-don’ts, and – on top of all that – whispers from below decks of insubordination !!!

    Indeed, I get the impression that some of you blaggards are planning on deposing us old hands, assuming command of the blog, sailing her to the South Pacific and scuttling her on the high seas of the world wide web ! Though not, I’d wager, before you venomous band of cut-throats have rolled ashore every last barrel of rum !

    Least ways, that’s how I sees it, says I.

  81. Avast, Markus! Hoist the deck! Swab that keel! And belay that powder boy, by gum!!

    Arrrrr…

  82. do you think, girl from newlands college, that mrs king may have been a little on edge with amethyst because of her physical altercation with a boy, the week before? maybe? maybe not?(as reported in waikato times.)
    refrain from gay bashing or you could be accused of being the pot that calls the kettle black.(ask your teacher about sayings- i’m sure he/she help you with the explanation.)

  83. Welcome to another Pandora’s Box!
    While Brian’s focus centres on the reactions of the parents ["My son is NOT a mass murderer!" This, despite the row of decapitated heads in his fridge], my contention is that this whole scenario raises a heap of interesting issues for modern society:

    - The precipitating events, rules and their merit
    - The reactions of ‘authority’ to children and parents
    - The reactions of parents to ‘authority’ and to their children
    - The reactions of the community at large

    In the case of this current scenario, I don’t think any aspect should be ignored or overlooked, because all parts are relevant to the whole.

    By way of clarification, the definition of ‘slut’, just so we’re all singing in tune, is:

    slut n. (offensive) a slovenly or promiscuous woman [Middle English: origin unknown]
    The Concise Oxford Dictionary Ninth Edition 1995

    I don’t think it matters how many people engage in this debate, as long as it is objective. It would be nice if it was honest/intelligent/considered/balanced/rational … but you can’t have everything.
    Not all parents are perfect and their children often appear as symptoms of parental dis-ease.

    Me? I want to start with the triggering event because that is the first issue. Judy points out good reasons why we need to try and protect teenagers from their anti-authoritarian peer impressing impulses … but before we do, shouldn’t we examine the logic of the authority? I personally find it pretty hard to respect an authority that adheres to tradition without reason.
    Respect is a reciprocal quality, throughout this whole scenario none is evident.

    I look at the picture posted above and say to myself: “if that young woman is wearing shorts, then I have no problem with her potential vulnerability to predators”.

    What do you think?

  84. @Ross Marwick: Thank you! I have enormous respect for teachers, because my tolerance for children (and teenagers) hovers between “very low” and “non-existent”. Teachers do a job that requires extremely high levels of maturity, self-control and good judgement at all times. Nice to see at least one teacher gets it; I’m sure most of your colleagues do.

  85. 98 posts so far and Godwin’s Law has yet to apply. Amazing!

  86. @ Number Eleven

    Pirates, yes, Hitler, no.

  87. I read about this story and thought to myself “the teacher probably said she looked like a slut because she did”.

    And then I went back to doing whatever it was I was doing.

  88. I have a son of a similar age and another one who was recently that age. At that age they are inordinately and obsessively fascinated with their own bodies and with showing off what they regard as their best bits. Just as much as girls. They’ll grow out of it.

    They’re also gentlemen who will shake your hand when introduced, assist people with carrying things without being asked and hold the door open. And they also do their very best to push the uniform rules to the limit – and see how long they can get away with going over the limit. Its not a media story, but nor do I particularly care whether their shoes are shined or their trousers at the correct butt-height. Just as my mother didn’t giving a flying about what I wore to school. Even with her uncaring attitude about my uniform I did very well academically – dux in fact.

  89. Tom Semmens is suggesting the topic doesn’t warrant all the discussion. And he’s right.

  90. I would have succumbed to a nervous breakdown years ago if I allowed myself to be affected by cheap insults to either of us.

    I thought Brian had banned the use of irony in this thread!

    Seriously Judy, can you not see that it’s wee bit rich to complain about “cheap insults” in support of a blog post that loudly heralds the right of a teacher to tell a child she looks like a slut?

    • Seriously Judy, can you not see that it’s wee bit rich to complain about “cheap insults” in support of a blog post that loudly heralds the right of a teacher to tell a child she looks like a slut?

      Oh dear, Russell, esteemed media commentator, read the bloody headline, ignore the body copy, running to more than a hundred comments in this case, and god knows how many replies from me and Judy , and get on your high horse. ‘The right of A teacher to tell A child’. But of course we’re not talking of any teacher and any child. There’s a context here that somewhat changes the picture. I’m reasonably certain that the relationship between Mrs King and Amethyst is actually quite a close one. Amethyst, if I read the reports correctly, is a fairly regular visitor to the dean’s office where they discuss a number of problem areas for the 14-year-old, including her skirt. These two know one another well. There’s history here and it’s the history which changes the picture. I could have told my 14-year-old daughter that she shouldn’t go out to a dance half-naked because guys would think she looked like a streetwalker and treat her accordingly. I was her father and we were very close and I worried about what might happen to her. I think something similar is going on here. The ‘slut’ comment was the last word in a conversation that had been going on for weeks, possibly months in the context of a critical but supportive relationship. Is that really the same as someone writing to me to tell me I’m a dirty old Irish paedophile getting my jollies from perving on schoolgirls in short skirts. Does that (and there’s much, much more from enlightened feminists) qualify as nothing more than ‘cheap insults’?

      Someone sent me a tweet the other day, suggesting that I now appeared to have captured an entire talk-back audience for this site. I thought the comment was astute. But it just so happens that that’s the last thing I want. Or need.

  91. Oh dear…and you are such an interesting commentator…you shall be missed!!!!!!

  92. keep up your good work brian and judy. for me the blog is about debate and enlightenment. we may change our ideas if convinced, we may question and occasionally we may get the short scrift from brian and think “up him”- but it’s about examining a subject or event we feel concerned about or interested in. thanks for the opportunity to view and to be able to contribute.
    in this particular thread, the irony i see,(yes, more irony) is that those who sink to personal abuse wouldn’t stand 5 minutes in front of a class – they are in the vein of what they seek to condemn. and i don’t mean those who rationally oppose the writer’s piece.

  93. You know, there are other ways of dealing with pupils who violate a school’s dress code. Calling a girl a slut might be one way for a parent or teacher to deal with such a situation, but it’s certainly not the only or the most effective way.

  94. “..she shouldn’t go out to a dance half-naked because guys would think she looked like a streetwalker and treat her accordingly” – exactly how would/should guys treat a streetalker Brian? Gosh you’ve come out with some winners on here haven’t you?

    Your comment about having a ‘talk-back’ audience is pathetic. You must have known this blog would cause a reaction. Play innocent all you want but if you feel fine about taking like this about a 14-year-old girl you should really harden up and take the critcism. If these blog comments get you upset imagine how it feels to be the young girl everyone is talking about. The ‘slut’ if you will.

    The fact is – telling women they invite behaviour because of the way they dress is seen as wrong by a lot of people. You have to suck it up and deal with the fact that lots of people don’t agree with you on this one. Your opinion isn’t the norm and you shouldn’t yell victim just because people don’t support your out-dated, sexist views.

  95. Oh dear, Russell, esteemed media commentator, read the bloody headline, ignore the body copy, running to more than a hundred comments in this case, and god knows how many replies from me and Judy , and get on your high horse.

    There’s no need to school me about online discussions, Brian. I’ve had a few. And yes, I’ve read the whole thread, of course.

    Look, if you write something like that, some people are going to disagree with you. I haven’t seen comments you’ve removed or edited (tip: just ban millsy if you can), but none of what appears here seems outside the bounds of vigorous internet argument.

    Your complaint about the use of analogies and irony was a bit daft in that context. You might as well complain about the use of vowels, or people breathing while they type.

    Anyway, my view is that even if Amethyst’s mother now seems to be grandstanding, it’s completely inappropriate for a teacher to use that sort of language to a child. I’m also generally not that keen on gendered insults such as “slut”.

    But look, you’ve inspired a blog post from Emma Hart in response:

    http://publicaddress.net/up-front/thats-inappropriate/

  96. “But it just so happens that that’s the last thing I want. Or need.”

    Relax, Brian; take Judy and have two cups of coffee and biscotti; if you can’t afford it let me know and I will send you $11; it is worth it for the immense pleasure your blog gives me, although I do object to being likened to Talkback callers.

    While you are drinking your coffee read Linley Boniface in today’s Dompost and I can assure you that the world will seem a much brighter place.

    One small quote from the column:

    “The bus I catch home from work in central Wellington is usually packed with schoolgirls and I am routinely transfixed with admiration at their dextrous and creative use of some of the filthiest words in the Enlish language. But things are apparently very different out Newlands way if Amthyst Staladi and her parents are to be believed.”

    “Amethyst suffered the 21st century equivalent of an attack of the vapours…(when told) ‘she looked like a slut’.”

    • although I do object to being likened to Talkback callers.

      Ben, Russell Brown has made the same point, which I accept. To clarify: If you did not send me a comment full of gratuitous and obscene personal abuse, my reference to ‘an entire talk-back audience’ does not refer to you.

      Cheers

  97. Someone sent me a tweet the other day, suggesting that I now appeared to have captured an entire talk-back audience for this site. I thought the comment was astute. But it just so happens that that’s the last thing I want. Or need.

    Also: it’s generally not a good idea to demean as a group people who have bothered to read your post and respond to your arguments.

  98. Oh. What happened to my previous comment?

    Just found it in the spam, Russell. Maybe the website is starting to flex its editorial muscles? Inappropriately in this case. Your comment is now visible. JC

  99. JC:

    What I find particularly “ironic” is how often I’ve heard you — and other media women of your generation — speak with considerable eloquence of how hard you had to fight against casual and pervasive newsroom sexism. You know, the idea that a woman’s place wasn’t on the womens’ pages writing about scone recipes and hem lengths; that objecting to running commentary on your tits and arse didn’t make you a hairy-legged manhater (and probably a lesbian to boot); and that you deserved to be judged on the quality of your work not your couture.

    • @Craig

      I’m trying to find the relevance in your comment to me, Craig.

      My argument is that teenage girls need and deserve protection by their parents and teachers, sometimes even protection against themselves, during this natural time of rebellion and experimentation. What that has to do with women historically not being allowed to present the news (or weather at one time) because they ‘didn’t have enough authority’, I’m not quite sure. Yes, the glass ceiling was so low you had to stoop or bang your head, but the newsroom wasn’t dominated by chauvanism, in my experience. The closed-thinking generally came from the management, who were yet another generation removed.

      Incidentally, the only time I encountered the sort of sexual annoyance you speak about was as a cadet journalist (on The Listener of all places!). The offending journo ceased patting my bum when I patted his crotch with my knee, and I assume the word got around.

  100. @Ben:

    In my experience, I’ve known plenty of journalists who have, shall we say, a considerable command of the saltier vernacular — especially after a beverage or twelve on a Friday night.

    I suspect Ms. Boniface would still have an “attack of the vapours” if her editor told her in the middle of the newsroom to go home and find an look that didn’t scream “whore of Babylon.”

  101. I dont think putting the issue in a historical context justifies the use of the word slut or the improper dress length.They are still both wrong.

  102. Craig, you may well be right, but it does not alter the fact that it is a well written and humourous piece whether you agree with the sentiments or not.

  103. Sometimes it seems there isn’t an ounce of common sense left in the world.

    Should teachers tell 14 yr old girls they look like sluts when they wear short skirts? Probably not, but I have no doubt they have been doing so for as long as anyone living can remember.

    How many 14yr old girls these days would actually be shocked at the word? A distinct minority!

    Assuming that the girl and the mother were geuninely offended, should a verbal apology be sufficient? Obviously.

    Why would a truly offended girl and her mother go on national TV to demand a written apology / personal file note etc etc? Who knows!

  104. @Ben:

    Up to a point. I recently worked through the Library of America’s wonderful two volume edition of H.L. Mencken’s ‘Prejudcies’. Mencken had a wonderful (and vastly influential) prose style, and a gleefully cynical view of humanity I find rather attractive — which didn’t make his misogyny, anti-Semitism and increasingly cranky nastiness any easier to swallow. Style only excuses so many sins.

  105. “Slut” was never the right word to describe a schoolgirl in a short dress. She wasn’t plastered in dark rouge, smeared lipstick, wearing laddered
    fishnet stockings and stilettos, reeking of a cheap perfume and swearing like a fishmonger’s wife.

    The author’s main beef has to do with the fact: that the mother, not content with a verbal apology from the teacher, set out to humiliate that teacher by ensuring the episode leeched out into the public arena. It’s the haughty mother who took her grievance to the media. And who, then, dutifully obliged by giving the story..err.. legs.

    Note: the mother and father have different surnames. They’re either not married, or they are into a kind of singular “individualism”. Fiercely
    protective of their own identities; beholden to no one but themselves. An attitude, both parents have nurtured when it comes to their precious and
    pretentiously-named: Amethyst. (BTW: the name is right up there with “Lapis Lazuli”).

    Ms. Marshall was hell-bent on demanding her “pound of flesh”, as shown by her endeavours to black-mark the teacher on her employment file. It was vindictive and spiteful, serving no purpose other than to diminish that teacher’s status within the entire school’s community, while bolstering her daughter’s prickly conceit; making her more of a brat than what she already is.

    The daughter is not a victim. She’s been singed because her airhead mother fanned the flames.

  106. ‘Young people swear a lot so teachers can call them anything they like’ is not a particularly defensible position.

  107. “An attitude, both parents have nurtured”

    yes it would be a terrible thing if parents were to start nurturing an independent spirit in their children. what if every child grew up thinking they should be able to decide what they wanted to wear? think how soon the world would come to an end.

    clearly, merv, you conform to society’s expectations in all matters like the good little sheep your parents raised you to be. this is probably why you think the way you do.

    on the other hand, although I was raised by married parents with the same surname, I and my unmarried partner are proud to be raising our daughter to have an independent spirit and the confidence to make her own decisions. I thank you for pointing out how that makes us bad parents.

    I do think that Amethyst’s parents were foolish to turn this into a media circus but I think it’s quite stupid to suggest their marital status is the issue here.

  108. Merv:

    AFAIK, Judy Callingham does not – and never has – styled herself in professional or private life as ‘Mrs. Brian Edwards’. Perhaps you’d like to share your impertinent and vulgar views on her personality, character and morals? OTOH, I suspect our host and Ms. Callingham would very much prefer you didn’t.

  109. My God, what a po faced, anally retentive bunch some of you are.

  110. Just found it in the spam, Russell. Maybe the website is starting to flex its editorial muscles? Inappropriately in this case. Your comment is now visible. JC

    Thanks Judy. I soon realised that the comment was automatically held back because it contained a link.

  111. My God, what a po faced, anally retentive bunch some of you are.

    And good day to to you, sir!

  112. “sometimes even protection against themselves”

    seee, this is the argument i have trouble with. are you implying that if women dress in a particular way, they will be safe from abuse & violence? let me assure from my own personal experience that this is not the case. therefore it is a dangerous message to send. if you would only dress like this or not go there or not do this, you would be safe. i wasn’t safe fully clothed in my own home. nowhere is safe, and it never will be until we start dealing with the actual problem: the danger is from abusers, the people who need to change their behaviuor are abusers, the only way for abuse to stop is for abusers to stop abusing. wearing a longer skirt is not going to protect this young woman from anything. and i say this as a woman who hasn’t gone out in public with her head, arms or legs uncovered in almost 10 years now.

    • No, Stargazer, I’m not quite so silly as to imagine that your skirtlength has the power to keep you safe.

      I’m suggesting that the somewhat hysterical turn this argument has taken ignores the responsibility of caregivers to give guidance to children and to do their best to protect them.

      Like the poor, the abusers will always be with us. Kids need to know that, know how to prevent being abused and how to handle it if it happens.

  113. Russell; the barb was not aimed at you

  114. Judy, for God’s sake go and have that cup of coffee!

  115. “how to prevent being abused”

    and that’s what we’d like to hear from both you & mr edwards. what actions or behaviours would prevent abuse?

    because you’ve both made the point that dressing in a certain way increases risk for women. i don’t believe that’s true for a minute, but you apparently seem to. what advice then would you give on dress that would reduce the chances of abuse?

  116. Oh dear …are there any toys left in the sandpit!!!!!

  117. Stargazer:

    No one can dress to avoid unwanted sexual advances. However we can dress in a way designed to attract sexual gaze. If we couldn’t then prostitutes on street corners would dress like office workers – they clearly do not. They dress to attract customers for sex. Short skirts is part of that, which is why I want to offer warm rugs to prostitutes when I see them on the street in winter.

    Let’s be realistic, girls wear short skirts to draw the male gaze. Is it a good idea to allow them to do so? No. We shouldn’t be encouraging teenagers into early sexual behavior tacitly allowing provocative behavior.

    Instead we should be encouraging girls to treat their bodies with respect and dignity. To promote their confidence in themselves as complete people rather than just sexual objects.

  118. I second Stargazer’s question.

    I do wonder if it will be answered since my questions along the same vein have been ignored.

    Lots of women and men who have commented on here are concerned about what you think will happen to young girls who hike their skirts up. From what I’ve read you also seem to believe that if women dress like “street walkers” (what an interesting term) or “sluts” (I don’t actually know what sluts look like) then they invite certain behaviours from men and “abusers”. Care to elaborate?

  119. “Let’s be realistic, girls wear short skirts to draw the male gaze.”- Tess Rooney

    Do we? Because I wear short skirts frequently (on probably more than half of the days of the week), and it’s never to attract the male gaze. I wear these particular short skirts because I like them and how they look on me. Short skirts are not inherantly sexual; if we read short skirts as being indicators of sexuality, it’s because we have projected our ideas onto items of clothing. I resent having to defend my clothing choices and say that no, I’m not trying to get men to look at men (and in fact I would prefer if they didn’t), and no, my short skirt doesn’t express any kind of message about my sexuality.

  120. Boganette:

    It’s easy to see what people determine “slut” looks like. Just google “slut” with safesearch off.

  121. But everyone’s view is different Tess. When I look at a girl in a school uniform I don’t think “she looks like a slut”. But then I don’t look at anyone and think “she looks like a slut”. I might think: that top is ugly, or that skirt is not flattering. But I don’t generally sort all women into ‘slut’ and ‘not-a-slut’ categories.

    I saw your above comment too. Yes, if we cover up nobody will look at us in a “sexual” way. Works a treat. It’s hard in summer when it’s hot and you want to be cool but hey that’s the price you pay if you don’t want unwanted sexual attention right? I’m just glad they make swimming costumes that cover me from head to toe. Until I realised that it was my fault that men looked at me sexually I totally felt like I could dress whatever way I wanted. I feel so much better now – except I’m very hot because this gingham is just super itchy. Do you get used to that Tess? And the whole socks with sandles thing? I feel so uncomfortable! Oh well. Better safe than sorry.

  122. One point puzzles me: why should a 14-year-old girl, who is as likely as not to call others of her ilk ‘sluts’, or at least frequently heard the word’s use without being especially offended – unless directed at herself of course – why should she object to the staff-member’s use of it? Well, actually, it doesn’t puzzle me at all.

    That’s the thing, isn’t it. It is a well-worn insult among teenage girls. Incidentally (having a teenage daughter of my own) it has become clear that it does get used when some girl violates some unwritten dress code only teenage girls know about. When authority dared to apply it to her – adjectivally, be it noted, unlike the standard appellatory usage – there is no doubt she understood very well what the teacher was saying.

    It seems to me that, despairing at the inefficacy of speaking to this kid as if she were one who might have developed a sense of self-respect, responsibility and self-governance, sought a form of communication nearer the listener’s level of comprehension.

    You could say it worked.

    But there is another side to the argument that hasn’t been mentioned. Why did this girl persist in wearing that skirt? Could it be possible that to wear a longer skirt would have meant acquiring a replacement, and I have it on good authority these things ain’t cheap. Perhaps, for good and reasonable financial reasons, the parents hoped to get more mileage out of the one she had before replacing it. Who knows?

    If that is so, is it something any of them are likely to bring to the argument? Pride being what it is, we should not wonder if that aspect wasn’t raised.

    H’mmm…
    Cheers,
    Ion

  123. Boganette:

    I think it’s about context. Wearing togs at the pool or beach is fine because of the context. Those clothes are appropriate to swim in. Try going out to dinner in your togs if you contest my point. It’s the whole togs/undies thing.

    In our cultural context short skirts attract the male gaze. In my mother’s time at school short skirts were seen as childish and long skirts were womanly. Her uniform had to be 3 inches above her knees, only 1 inch longer than Amethyst’s. Mini skirts hadn’t been invented yet.

    With any term like “slut” it’s going to be defined as per the social context. Likewise what is prudish is defined by the wider society. We might call prudish calf length skirts, yet in 1860 that would have been utterly shocking to have a woman showing her lower legs so openly.

    Here’s a practical question though, when the girl bent over, say to pick up a pen, would she show her underware, given the length of her skirt?

  124. When a boy wears low-riding pants (like many boys did when I went to high school) that show off inches of exposed boxers, it’s bad because this is considered untidy, not slutty. But I guess boys showing underwear and girls showing underwear is different; untidy boys vs. slutty girls

  125. I’ve actually eaten in my bikini before and I felt quite comfortable doing it. But then I didn’t have judgemental old biddies staring at my dirty uncovered skin in horror while they clutch their rosaries doing a silent prayer for me.

    A practical question would probably be – are people going to look when a woman in a skirt bends over regardless of whether or not you can see her underwear?

    And if you can see her underwear and you’re overwhelmed with lust and you turn into a werewolf and….wait, what if you just see her and CONTROL YOURSELF. Would that be weird if you just tried to do that and let young women dress whatever way they want?

    No, I know, that’s crazy talk. We need to go back to the good old days of the 1860s. Times were better then.

    Could I suggest that in your mother’s day men still looked at women? And that it didn’t matter what they wore and it doesn’t matter now. That men will always look at women and women? And it’s actually up to men to deal with that? And that women should actually be free to dress how they please just as men are free to dress how they please?

  126. I’ve seen girls expose boxers too. Boxers cover the genital area as well as many shorts. I was thinking about panties rather than the more generous boxers.

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