Posted by BE on March 27th, 2014
What a dreadful fellow this Kim Dotcom is. He owns a signed copy of Adolf Hitler’s political manifesto Mein Kampf. This constitutes irrefutable evidence that the fat German believes in Hitler’s ‘final solution’ to the Jewish problem, that behind that jovial exterior is a closet Nazi. John Key will be wringing his hands in glee. He can tear Dotcom’s credibility to pieces. In the ongoing battle between the two men this revelation will mark the day that Kim Dotcom started to lose and John Key started to win.
We know this is true because it headed last night’s TV3 News. We are indebted to the unctuous Brook Sabin and the occasionally hysterical Patrick Gower for tearing this scab off Dotcom’s reputation.
You can follow the logic, can’t you: If you have bought and have in your possession a book written by an evil person and containing that person’s evil thoughts, then ipso facto you must share that evil person’s evil thoughts and, presumably, be an evil person yourself. Dotcom should count himself lucky that we don’t burn people like him at the stake any more. And the ducking stool has been out of commission for far too long.
There’s a lesson in this for all of us. I can tell you that I’m getting rid of my copies of Mao’s Little Red Book, the collected works of the Marquis De Sade and the Old Testament. I really don’t want people knowing that I’m a Communist pervert willing to gouge out the eyes and (without anaesthetic) pull out the teeth of anyone who crosses me. Half of my library will go out with the next blue bin collection.
Now, lest there be any misunderstanding, all of the above is intended to be ironic. My real opinion is that Sabin and Gower made asses of themselves on last night’s TV3 News.
I can tell you that if I found a signed copy of Mein Kampf in our excellent second-hand bookshop in Jervois Road tomorrow, I’d be getting out my chequebook before you could say Heil Hitler. I’d quite like to be really, really rich.
And, again to avoid any misunderstanding, I can tell you that I abhor everything the Nazis stood for.
Finally, Sabin seemed intent on portraying Dotcom as a collector of Nazi ‘memorabilia’. To me the word evokes Nazi uniforms and flags with swastikas and Third Reich coins. But this signed copy of Mein Kampf is, in addition to being a highly collectable and valuable item, first and foremost a rare and significant historical item.
We really need television reporters who put their brains in gear before even hinting that someone might be a Nazi sympathiser because they own a rare copy of a book written by Hitler.
And this question hangs in the air? Would Dotcom have been asked the same questions if he were any nationality other than German? I very much doubt it.
I believe he also owns a copy of Bill Shakespeare’s ” Much ado about nothing!”
Thank heavens it isn’t The Merchant of Venice!
Hahaha good one.
Then there’s the
War helmet photo
Nazi flag which was his “best present ever”
Allegations of Nazi salutes and
But nah, I’m sure he’s a normal kind of guy who just has a war fetish,
As for asking re if he was Not German. Would you be saying the same things in your post if John. Banks owned and was accused of all of the above?
Good god, how many Kiwis do you think collect First and Second World War memorabilia. Are they all Nazis? I’ve not heard of the ‘Nazi salutes’ and you need a bit more than ‘allegations’ to deal in this sort of character assassination. Given the same scenario, I would be presenting precisely the same argument if John Banks were the accused. And maybe I should now invite you to pass judgement on my own nasty little secret, that I have a Ph.D in German Literature and lived in Germany during my research period. The subject of my thesis was the Czech/German author Franz Kafka – a Jew. I can see that this is all pretty suspicious and probably explains why I’m incensed by such crappy journalism.
I don’t care how many degrees you have Brian or what they are in.
A man as smart as you should realize there is definitely something not quite right about anyone wearing a Nazi helmet, double if you are German as you should have a better idea of what it symbolizes.
There is a photo, what more evidence do you need?
He collects war memorabilia the same way he collects people. For his own amusement.
Yeah, um it was deemed poor taste by Prince Harry wearing SS gear to a party when it was obviously intended as a typical “don’t talk about the war” British joke.
And I seem to recall Harry’s family spent a bit of time actually fighting or taking an active and very public stance fighting the Nazis.
I thought the criticism of Harry at the time was unfair – and still do. But it was clearly an indication for everyone in the future that mainstream public taste, that once also laughed without a care at sexist, racist and homophobic jokes had moved on…
You don’t seem to be aware that the former King Edward VIII and his wife, by then the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, visited Nazi Germany and even shook hands with the Fuhrer. That’s a funny way to fight the Nazis!
Oh, yes I did know.
Which was part of the reason that when the Nazis overran France in 1940, the British bundled the fool of a Duke and social climber of a wife – who was always incessantly whining that she was never accorded the title HRH – straight off to the Bahamas without even setting foot in the UK, so he was well out of the way, and couldn’t do any more harm.
The man was always a headstrong fool, who never thought of others but himself always following foolish impulses.
I was in Germany when the “Harry Nazi” story broke. The daily newspaper featured a photo of Harry with his Nazi insignia, carrying a beer glass. The paper highlighted the fact that this British prince of the realm had shown a demonstrable lapse of taste by drinking wine from a beer glass. Perhaps we need a German advisor on TV3’s editorial team.
Without some context as to why he was wearing the helmet, this accusation is pretty pointless.
The only reason I don’t have Mein Kampf in my own library is that it is a terribly boring book.
Having said that, Hitler had a much better sense for pace and style than the author of Atlas Shrugged.
A Nazi helmet? A German Wehrmacht helmet, yes – I didn’t know helmets had a political persuasion.
Have you looked at the shape of US helmets lately, Kate.
A striking resemblance…….
Ive got a Waffen SS dagger. passed down from grandfather to father to me. Looks like i’m fucked if I ever want to stand for public office
With your questionable eloquence, we’d rather you didn’t.
Yep. I figured you to be an inpartial old school journalist a long time ago. But what are you teaching these young journos ? Why have smear campaigns like we see today replaced ballanced and invesigative journalism ?
I was unaware that I was teaching young journos anything.
“But this signed copy of Mein Kampf is, in addition to being a highly collectable and valuable item, first and foremost a rare and significant historical item.”
Then that signed copy belongs in a museum, or in an institutional collection. Not with a private collector willing to extract profit from it. And if the owner of such an object wishes to become a politician, we should be asking him questions.
And by the way, the German thing: of course it makes it worse. Germany has laws that limit freedom of opinion in this area for precise reasons: it recognises that in the hands of Germans the symbols and artefacts of Nazism mean something historically specific. Ditto my own country. If I collected or owned Fascist memorabilia, even for the purposes of financial investment (it staggers me you don’t find this abhorrent to be honest), it would be worse than if you did.
Whether the book ought to be in a museum rather than in a private collector’s hands is an entirely different issue.
Seems to me whether that book belongs with an aspiring politician is very precisely the issue, but hey, what do I know.
Not all that much, apparently.
That’s daft. Dotcom is only a Nazi memorabilia collector in the sense that he’s a World War II collector. It’s pretty hard to be a serious World War II collector if you refuse to collect Axis materials. I see no reason why Germans should be prevented from indulging what is a somewhat nebbish hobby.
Similarly, it’s hard to be a serious American Civil War collector if you refuse to collect materials from the Confederacy, but only a lunatic would think that being a Civil War collector meant you supported slavery. Hell, I was named after Bobby Lee himself and my brother after US Grant, as my Dad was a Civil War buff. Does that make him a racist?
One of my favourite toys as a child was a replica of the Bismarck. I also had the Tirpitz and the Scharnhorst. Does that make me a Nazi? My grandfather, who spent 5 years in a POW camp and was then sent on a midwinter death march, bought them for me? Was he a Nazi sympathiser?
Germany only has these laws because they are effectively still an occupied country since the end of the second world war (Actually under Jewish control not USA as they are also controlled by Jews). Think about that for a second.
And dont deny that Germany is not occupied. There are 21 US military bases currently in Germany.
Stalin’s pen was probably drenched in the blood of folk he ordered executed. It only got mentioned in passing.
A passing mention?!
I have two words: Dancing Cossacks.
Now where is Kat when I need her to confirm the paranoi…I mean fact that National, with American bag money, once stole an entire New Zealand election by summoning up the specter of evil Uncle Joe?
Kimbo, I don’t normally do cut and past however your persistent mocking forces me to put to you the extract below from the NZ History Unit & Film Archive. Similar commentary is available from other reliable sources and all concur that the dancing Cossacks greatly assisted in turning public opinion against Labour.
“The National Party’s 1975 ‘dancing Cossacks’ advertisement is probably the most famous – or infamous – piece of election advertising in New Zealand’s political history. In the first campaign held after the introduction of colour TV, National’s advertising agency, Colenso, engaged the famous American cartoon studio Hanna-Barbera to produce a colourful, animated advert.
National was trying to turn voters against the Labour government by suggesting that the latter’s recently introduced compulsory superannuation scheme might lead to Soviet-style Communism (conveniently ignoring the fact that the Cossack peoples had traditionally been opponents of the Bolsheviks). It did the trick too, helping sweep Robert Muldoon’s National Party into power in a landslide victory”
Yes. I found the same thing a while ago on Te Ara repeating the same commentary. Is that what you mean by “reliable sources and all concur”? Yes, if government departments say it, it MUST be the truth! Glad to see you are finally on board with everything the GCSB says.
But of course high inflation, burgeoning government debt, an inept government bereft of the great Norman Kirk, anger over the broken election promise when the 1973 Springbok tour was cancelled, and the attraction of a much simpler and arguably fairer universal superannuation scheme can’t have had ANYTHING to do with it.
I forgot – if the electorate doesn’t return a Labour government, they are greedy and/or stupid and/or scared and most certainly wrong.
Poor attempt at blustering your way around what is a commonly held opinion in regarding that particular ad campaign. No one says it was THEE reason that Labour lost the election, but it certainly contributed. If you believe it had no impact then you must believe that TV also had no impact.
Apparently Labour in the same campaign utilised a TV ad with a child holding a pig with implications of Mussolini and Fascism. So much for the wet and wooly “Citizens/Clerics/Academics for Rowling wanting to bring back ‘decency’ into NZ politics via their man. But for some reason the National ad is recorded for posterity by the National Film Unit and recalled by sundry academics and left wing shills. A case of you never really beat Labour, you just get more votes than them?
But I must apologise for adopting your policy of thread-jacking (i.e., I have the cossacks, you inject the failings of John Key in every unrelated thread).
However, truth be told, something would be missing from my sad and OCD-ridden life if your shonkey Johnkey comments were to disappear.
Yes, silly National Film Unit, how dare they! You should let them know, officially, what fools they are.
A “hotbed of communist infiltrators!”
I played the Dancing Cossacks commercial in its entirety for my media ethics class last year.
What’s interesting about it is that people only focus on the first part of it (the cartoon bit). After that, it cuts to Muldoon sitting at his desk where he then gives a talk for a few minutes carefully explaining his own policy and why he thinks it is preferable to Labour’s. I didn’t agree with him, but he did a good job of making his case.
That’s what’s so insane about the ad. People focus on the cartoon and red baiting, when the real shocker is that no politician these days would ever be granted a few minutes at a desk to carefully attempt by rational persuasion to convince the electorate of the merits of his policy.
While Muldoon wasn’t alone in his era, he was definitely a believer in “laying out your stall” so the electorate could make an informed decision on the facts.
Which is WHY, when Muldoon clashed with the media it was usually over what he perceived as inaccuracy and misreporting of facts. He may have had an strong personality (a necessary quality in a PM, IMHO) and some seriously negative character traits, but dishonesty, or failure to preserve truth in the public domain were not among them. Including dealing with Mahon over the Erebus report. I digress…
Muldoon, like everyone including blog posters, framed those facts to suit his case. Nevertheless, he did so with a “take it and me, or leave it and me” approach.
Like I said, the man was a liberal democrat. Or at least not the cardboard cut-out villain that both the left, and the neo-liberal right paint him as for their own self-serving purposes.
I’ll have you paying him respect, yet!
Kirk was the same, and TV appearances were backed up with printed detailed manifestos in those days. And I also remember when the detailed manifesto and policy announcements changed. In my youthful naivety I delivered copies of Labour’s glossy single folded A3 size version for the 1984 snap election. EVERYONE got a real surprise after that…!
I haven’t actually been following this thread. But readers may be interested that I did a two-hour, late night TV interview with Rob Muldoon on a series ((1975,76) called Edwards on Saturday. We played the Dancing Cossacks commercial. I asked Mr Muldoon what these dancing characters were and why they were in the commercial. From memory he was somewhat reluctant to use the word “Cossacks’ or to explain what their significance was in the commercial. He did his famous laugh a lot though. I may be doing him a disservice. It’s a long time ago and can probably be found somewhere among the TV archives. During a commercial break, I told him that his answers to my questions were extremely long and we weren’t going to get through all the topic areas. He replied: ‘Well, we’d get through the topics if you didn’t keep interrupting and asking so many of them.”
I should add that Judy and I got to know him well in his later years and grew to like and admire him very much.
I do wonder if Justice Mahon, Dr. Sutch, Colin Moyle, Marilyn Waring, and their supporters, would have had any good reason to ever ‘admire and like him very much’
…as Mahon never said who exactly conspired to present the “orchestrated litany of lies”, much less give them a chance to address that accusation in the Royal Commission hearings he conducted
…and as the Sutch trial was conducted at the time of the Rowling Government
…and as Moyle’s party colleagues were accusing Muldoon’s non-political business associates of illegal activities under parliamentary privilege at the time (so they had no opportunity to give an immediate defense), and Muldoon mistook a high-pitched laugh in support as coming from Moyle and decided to give what he considered like-for-like
…and as Muldoon had sought to protect Waring from attacks on her sexuality, her difficulties dealing with the pressures of parliamentary life, and her right to exercise her conscience on issues such as Springbok tours that did not relate to confidence and supply – and Waring then sought to act as an independent without precisely clarifying her independent status, much less on National’s bedrock stance on American ship visits, such that Muldoon judged she was acting in an erratic, hypocritical and untrustworthy manner…
then maybe whatever their opinion, it should be considered on the basis of how they too acted, and what Muldoon accordingly had to deal with in his offices of PM and/or MP for Tamaki.
War helmet photo
Which, if you’ve seen the pic, is clearly a comedy helmet donned at one point in a comedy car rally.
Nazi flag which was his “best present ever”
Which was, according to the story, hung in the basement and only removed before Campbell Live’s tour of the house. Which means it was there when the police raided. I struggle to believe the police, given their considerable embarrassment over the raid, would not have found some way to tell the public about.
Allegations of Nazi salutes and
Which, despite the comprehensive attention on Dotcom for several years, have only emerged in the context of a grievance from a former employee, as told to Whaleoil.
I really on’t think Dotcom is a closet neo-Nazi. I do think his party’s weird top-down constitution is probably a better subject of scrutiny.
Where else would you wear that helmet?
Holding a gun shooting Jewish people?
Nazis aren’t allowed to do that anymore.
Pretty weak defence. Kyle Chapman would wear that while riding around in a car thinking it was funny as well.
I’m sorry, Cathy, but I really think your reaction to this – “holding a gun shooting Jewish people” – is so over the top that it does you no credit. As someone else observed, by this criterion we have to regard Prince Harry as a Nazi sympathiser. It was a joke. I’m pretty sure this was too. I wonder how many Kiwis hire Nazi costumes for parties. Are they all Nazis as well?
As if you care about Jews, or anyone other than yourself.
In some circles I move in, I see people deliver such “salutes” regularly, as part of ceremony. The gesture is immeasurably older than the Nazis, and really needs “reclaiming” in a similar way to “queer”, “witch” etc.
I remember was had a translated copy in my high school library. I can remember the introduction said that if you read it expecting to be titillated or appalled by a lurid piece of political pornography, you would likely be disappointed. That certainly proved to be the case, and it wasn’t because work translated from German requires a certain type of mindset to read. That’s been my experience anyway. But back to Mein Kampf – a massive snorefest.
But I don’t think he bought it to make himself rich. He was ALREADY rich at the time. It comes down to a matter of taste, and judgement. As per Giovanni Tiso’s post above, I don’t know if I could look my Jewish friends in the eye with an entirely clean conscience.
Which is why I’d be pretty disturbed if John Key owned an autographed copy. Or any serious aspiring politician.
But then as KDC is more a marketing exercise to boost the profile of Megaupload and/or a hail Mary play in case the courts decide he should be extradited, normal rules don’t apply on the taste and judgement thing.
Owning a copy of Mein Kampf is not per se evidence of Nazi sympathies.
So what I await is whether the allegations contained in WOBH have any substance. KDC has dismissed them as. Nat smear. Let’s wait and see.
So annoying that brain dead TV news lead with sport related stories, before getting on to the launch of a new political party. Where there not enough murder stories today? Both channels proved that their news reporters & editors are pack hacks incapable of independent thinking and falling for some juicy smear like dogs crunching on the bones of some long dead sheep. A new all time low in TV Snooze.
Your point is BE? Tick one below please:
1. First paras … “DC is a Nazi creep” or
2. Later paras … “By throwing out “my” dubious literature … I therefore side with … that chubby bookworm”.
Which ONE! … Me I’m confused.
Not as confused as I am by your question. It really is important to avoid irony in New Zealand. Everyone takes what you say or write literally.
Irony might best be a “little more self evident” eh? Brian.
It is the subtle, nuanced balance that earns irony its name. For if is “lost” on us “others” … then … it quite literally is lost!
Otherwise, individual (irony-intended) eccentricities, that is, really! odd humour/p*ss taking heavily disguised as irony) is lost on us … mere dim-witted proles*.
*NO! … Make that genuinely “bemused” … “others”
Oh and … So the following was not ironic too?? I mean who could tell? and “Thats! the problem” … Its calledhoisted onyour own … etc
QED (see all above).
“Hey Larry … And just in case the patently bleeding obvious escaped anyone – Para 5 begins thus: “Now, lest there be any misunderstanding, all of the above is intended to be ironic. My real opinion is…….”
Can’t believe you missed the bleeding obvious irony of the first few paras, Larry. I mean REALLY REALLY BLEEDING OBVIOUS !!! And just in case the patently bleeding obvious escaped anyone – Para 5 begins thus: “Now, lest there be any misunderstanding, all of the above is intended to be ironic. My real opinion is…….”
Jesus, Mary !!! (as our Catholic chums would say), you can lead a horse all the way down to the water but clearly you can’t necessarily make him drink it.
Our Larry is from Puhoi; a quaint rural town where its grinning inhabitants are not renowned for their intellect — and are easily “confused”.
What a beat up – Did people not bother to read the ENTIRE interview, where Dot Com reveals that he has Jewish roots? And that he is not just German, he is half Finnish? These cut and splice jobs on TV3 news where the story shown is not the whole story,deliberately of course, designed to show the hapless interviewee in a bad light – a la Gower’s interview with David Cunliffe on “The Nation” – we who actually watched the WHOLE interview were astonished at the way it was portrayed on TV3’s news that night, totally opposite conclusions would have been drawn by the viewers of Gower’s shortened offering.
I can’t wait for Steve Brunias to do a ‘Week in the life of Paddy Gower”
Meh, having Jewish ancestry doesn’t mean anything. Hitler’s own mum was Jewish.
It’s still a beat-up, but only because we’ve conditioned ourselves as a society to be ultra-sensitive about such things (though more so if you’re not from the left).
Brian , you said so eloquently exactly what I was thinking as I watched the TV3 story last night. Frankly I was appalled and think both reporters should be ashamed of themselves for such unprofessional journalism.
You are so right about the showdown between JK + DC , love it. Although a bit far fetched ,I liked Pam Corkery’s little side piece in today’s Herald page A10 .
While all parties are beating a path to that mansion’s door , watch your back Winston , there maybe a new Kingmaker in town .
It’s appalling commentary of the blogateriat that you need to explain that your comments are ironic, twice. But if Patrick Gower doesn’t get it, how can you expect the rest of the population to understand your irony? Most blokes in NZ have an interest in WW2, and it is generally recognized that Herr Hitler played a major role in it. And who hasn’t been to a fancy dress party without at least one guest in an SS uniform and toothbrush mustache goosestepping about shouting “Sieg Heil?” Furthermore, does it matter if DotCom doesn’t know how many MP’s there are? I agree, the TV3 piece was appalling, even if I do think DotCom is a thieving pirate who needs to be shown the door.
Didn’t Gary McCormick do a tour dressed as Hitler?
No, but I believe Hitler once did a tour dressed as Gary McCormick.
Agree with you Brian. Whether having an academic interest in Nazism, or a collector’s interest, or indeed an idle attraction to the ceremony and trappings of Nazi power (it was after all some of the most compelling theatre in the history of mankind) does not make one an irredeemable piece of human garbage. And no person is entitled to draw such a connection without proof that it is the ideology itself which is supported.
Until we hear he’s been caught practising his goose-stepping march, let’s give Big Boy the benefit of the doubt. Seriously, I don’t think he’s a Nazi sympathiser.
Really ugly and lurid reporting from Gower.
The collusion between TV3 news – an organisation which fancies itself as a part of the establishment mainstream broadcast with all the self important pomposity of arrogating to itself the rights and privileges that entail – with the disgusting pornographer and low life peddler of right wing hate Cameron Slater is what saddens me the most.
Our news media is dead. It has been replaced by hysterical dunderheads like Gower and mendacious wide boys like Sabin using repulsive lowlifes because it rates.
Fourth estate? Pull the other one. If this the new norm, then people like Gower, Sabin and Slater deserve no more legal privilege than a pervert caught going through a women’s underwear drawer.
Kim Dotcom must really have some dirt on John Key over the GCSB thing to warrant this sort of organised political harassment.
Jeepers creepers – I just finished reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich which had loads of Mien Kampf quotes – which I read – does that make me a Nazi too
Scheiße – I own Nazi era stamps. Oh and stamps from other questionable regimes like the DDR, Communist Hungary, Imperialist Britain, . . . Scheiße, and a Stalin era rifle. Woe is my non-existent political career.
DC may well not be a neo Nazi, but he is most certainly a fool to come to live in NZ and proceed to get off side with the government and a very large number of New Zealanders. The big child should give up wasting his time playing computer games and grow up.
Over 1/3 of gamers are over 35. The average age of a gamer is 30, and adult women represent a greater number of gamers than males under 17.
Age is no indicator of maturity.
Uninformed blanket statements about gamers aren’t either
So you concede my point. Your magnanimity is appreciated.
Literacy isn’t your strong point either.
I say that age is no indicator of maturity, and you respond with personal abuse?
I rest my case.
I would doubt those statistics, based on a personal experience of having never as yet seen a woman playing computer games. Mostly I seem to see only males playing violent games involving shooting and hurling grenades at other camouflage dressed homicidal maniacs. Just the sort of virtual world that KDC is a champion at. The battle he is having with the FBI and the hoards of people he has made enemies of, is one I am pretty sure he will lose along with his health.
He’s German. That’s enough for me…
What is really concerning is the idea that a news outlet manufactures a story out of a fragment of information – owning a book.
From that they confect a context. The owner of the book is a prominent German resident. Aha! zwei und zwei gleich Elefanten (and ratings on the back of an ‘exclusive’).
It is a bit like the producers of an ‘unscripted reality show’ taking the raw footage and editing it to look like something happened when in fact – nothing like the story took place – even though that’s what it plainly looks like. The purpose isn’t to illuminate the viewer but to entertain us.
Is there something weird going on at TV3? They have squandered their opportunity to charge ahead and be the most credible news outlet in this market. Not a difficult challenge. Campbell Live showed promise when TVNZ mis-stepped with Seven Sharp but now they have resorted to faff stories like giant pumpkin boats, children who are good at scrabble and the use of the word ‘small’ in coffee shops. John Campbell himself makes blunder by pushing his reporter out of the way in Malaysia so he can win some credibility as the derring do hero how cleared the fog surrounding MH370. The last we saw of Charlotte Glennie was a very angry looking woman standing next to clown with nothing more to report than his presence – like Clive Dunn ‘reporting for duty’ in Dad’s Army.
Therein lies the connection. 3News are fighting the Phoney War before the blitzkreig of the election. The mad blogger is in the pay of the foe creating scuffles on the Polish border that will validate an invasion.
I’ll have to switch to Al Jazeera. Local news has dried up. Oh, and there’s nothing new or ‘news’ about getting an exclusive from made up stories. Why just this morning I saw Obama and Key kissing in my porridge sludge at the bottom of the pot – alert the National Enquirer.
Here’s a link to Brooker
Hey Cathy Odgers, since you are being so high and mighty. How do you feel about your hero Alan Gibbs – the Randian hero who single handed keeps ACT afloat from his Galt like retreat in the Kiapara – feasting happily with Afghani General Abdul Rashid Dostum? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/article.cfm?c_id=7&objectid=3558796
You know, that general Dostum? Just to refresh your memory, he is the guy who stuffed hundreds of prisoners into shipping containers and left them to suffocate. Estimates of the number of victims range from 250-3000.
So tell me Cathy, how do you feel about that? An actual war criminal, being toasted gleefully by a man who funds the ACT party? Should we not lead the 6pm news with this? Why are you not thundering for some sort of investigation into the activities of Alan Gibbs? I mean, where there is smoke there is fire, surely?
“…The big child should give up wasting his time playing computer games and grow up…”
Thus spakes the authentic and full throated voice of Presbyterian, venetian blind twitching, kleiner Kiwiland.
This whole reaction says something quite damning about New Zealand culture in general. It illustrates how culturally uncomfortably we are with real individuality, our massive need for conformism and throws into sharp relief an unreconstructed parochial and insular society always keen to cut down the tall poppy.
John Key is pretty rich. Why doesn’t he own anything as interesting as a signed copy of Mein Kampf? Because is he is to much of an incurious intellectual oaf to have the imagination to be fascinated by such an object, that is why. And that is exactly as a society how we like it. Key might be rich, but he enjoys his wealth in the safest of officially approved manners – a scaled up version of the Kiwi middle class that even the thickest aspirational Vodafone junior exec and his dolly girlfriend from Takapuna can understand. Dan and Gemma may envy Dotcom his money, but really they desperately want to conform and be rich, like John Key.
We do bland provincialism just fine here in NZ thank you very much. Flashy Johnny foreigner with his dangerously controversial curiosities, frankly individualistic fascinations and the money to pay for them need not apply.
So NOT owning a signed copy of Mein Kampf is proof you are a BORING rich prick.
You, sir, are a complete idiot. I would explain, but I’m out of crayons just now.
Thanks for the offer sanctuary, but I’d likely eat the crayons. Whatwith me and most others being part of that “damning…New Zealand culture”, how does a sensitive intellectually sophisticated soul like you endure unappreciated and misunderstood?
Continually surrounded by goits who think “irony” is a colour of paint, and that “workers’ revolution” is an extra fast spin cycle to clean overalls.
You deserve to be in Paris…
Well, we could have both lied and pretended you might be able to see my argument or be open to suasion, but I am glad we’ve both agreed to just accept you for who you are and not bother.
The fallacy of denying the antecedent strikes again, Kimbo.
I actually thought Sanctuary’s was the fallacy of the unattributed middle, irrespective of whatever response he was giving to Edward, as follows: –
Intellectually insular rich pricks don’t own a copies of Mein Kampf.
John Key is a rich prick who doesn’t own a copy of Mein Kampf.
Therefore John Key is intellectually insular.
But I defer to your academic and professional expertise to instruct otherwise…
Sanctuary implied that if someone was uninteresting, they would not own Mein Kampf (if not p then not q). This is logically equivalent to the claim that if someone owned Mein Kampf, they would be interesting (if q then p). You then said:
“So NOT owning a signed copy of Mein Kampf is proof you are a BORING rich prick.”
That’s denying the antecedent (or affirming the consequent if you took the original formulation of the conditional).
It would be completely ridiculous to suggest that Sanctuary meant that all interesting people owned Mein Kampf or that all people who didn’t own Mein Kampf were uninteresting. Yet that is what you did. Shame on you.
he he. I plead guilt by accidental omission not commission. I tried to help the teenager in our household last year when she did Level 1 Philosophy/Logic. Invariably we both got lots wrong. Like moving shells
I note we haven’t dissected Sanctuary’s initial (highly suspect premise)
“Why doesn’t he (Key) own anything as interesting as a signed copy of Mein Kampf? Because is he is to much of an incurious intellectual oaf to have the imagination to be fascinated by such an object, that is why.”
Would I be right that the fallacy is in the question-framing? Is is “begging the question”? – which is a form of circular argument, as I understand it.
If that’s the best the National Party can come up with then I’m pretty optimistic about the election.
Just another red herring-Lets get back to Hekia and Judith who have actually done something which requires our attention.
Using the Nazi allegation is so common on the net it has a name, Godwin’s Law.
Godwin’s Law states that as an online argument grows longer and more heated, it becomes increasingly likely that somebody will bring up Adolf Hitler or the Nazis. When such an event occurs, the person guilty of invoking Godwin’s Law has effectively forfieted the argument.
Brian; pity we can’t embed urls in these comments
Does Godwin’s apply when Hitler and the Nazis ARE the argument in the first place?
If not, does that make any such argument immune to Godwin’s?
Or can Hitler/Nazis be injected afresh into the argument at a later stage? e.g., Cameron Slater’s moral attitude to owning a particular book smacks of book burning”
Where is Lee Churchman when we need him to clarify these important (tabloid TV-generated) matters?!
You missed the point Kimbo,
The “argument” started when Kim.Com challenged the PM and started getting political. I am using Godwins law in a broader sense here.
I am not trying to be clever it just such a well tried tactic, one of many to dehumanise and dismiss someone via character assassination.
The sad thing is Kim.Com gives out plenty to be critical about but he is clever and rich so ts a lot easier to say ” yah bloody nazi”
Which is the Goodwin law.
There you go, Richard, acting like a bloody Nazi again. Fascist !!!
Thanks Markus , you communist, gay faggot baby killer.
Maybe we could, Richard, but I don’t even know what “embed urls in these comments means”. Basically I just type stuff. Judy may have an answer.
IMO it was a relevant story but vastly overegged. He is financing a political party to support his owen ends that aims to manipulate the political system. And he seems to be very incautious. The Internet party constition with him as the self apoointed “visionary” is a better story. Paddy Gower’s comment was bizarre. It joined dots on different sides of the page
Whale Oil and Gower’s attempted smear of Kim Dotcom reminds me of John Cleese’s lampoon of anti-German bigotry in his portrayal of Basil Fawlty.
It is a recognised nazi propaganda tactic to dehumanise your opponent, as a prelude to physically attacking them, so as to make it more acceptable to society to destroy them.
The German Fascists did it to the Jews, the Israeli Zionists do it to the Palestinians.
In engaging in such low tactics they, Slater and Gower, like Basil Fawly, reveal that they are closer to being prejudiced fascist bigots than those whom they are attacking.
Shame on TV3 and Patrick Goweer for tagging onto the coat tails of Cameron Slater and indulging in this type of sleezy character assassination.
The argument against Kim Dotcom for owning a copy of Mein Kampf is a simple association fallacy as Brian Edwards pointed out, as such it is a decidedly weak argument, but sadly, it pretty much underscores the intellectual limitation of most political bloggers and political journalists.
I am screwed.
I read Mein Kampf at University while studying Borchert.
Mea culpa! And I read the Punic Wars (all of them).
And I had copies of The Little Red Book. My politics are confused. Do you think Winnie will have me, now that I have reached an age when I should be taking him seriously?
What will happen when they find out that I respect Putin?
Ho Ho, Hi Ho, it’s off to Guantanamo you go…
Was fur Dreck!
The more that “oldies” like Garner, Hosking, Plunket, P Henry, try to run down Dotcom, and dissuade their audiences against him, the more that young guys Dotcom appeals to, will want to vote for his Internet party.
I must correct the poster who said that Prince Harry wore SS uniform at a party a few years ago.
Actually it appeared to be a shirt worn by a soldier of General Erwin Rommel’s Afrika Korps. The DAK, as the Germans called it, was probably the least-‘Nazi’ of any formation fielded by the Heer (Army) during WW2.
In my life I’ve known many Kiwi war veterans who had a high regard for their desert opponents – they fought their war cleanly (as much as it was possible to fight a war cleanly), and I in particular knew one man, from Northland, who owed his life to the kindness of a German sergeant.
I don’t particularly care about Herr Dotcom’s way of life, and even less about his political aims.
I do know, though, that if it hadn’t been for him the GCSB would still be snitching on Kiwi citizens, John Key would still be asleep at the wheel in his oversight of the country’s security agencies, and we would never know about how easily the New Zealand Police jumped to do the bidding of the United States Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Oh, and I meant to add: About 1964, when I was 14, I was able to borrow Mein Kampf from the Pahiatua Library.
Yep, it had it, on the same shelf as Knights of Bushido and Scourge of the Swastika, both written by Earl Russell, and which the librarians refused to let me take out. Perhaps it was the pictures …
A question: if Kim Dotcom had worn a cap with a red star; done a clenched fist salute; had a hammer-and-sickle flag; had portraits or busts of the mass-killers Lenin and Stalin (as Rupert Murdoch was reputed to have done when he was at Worcester College, Oxford); would there be the same attempts to smear him?
Stalin had the blood of more people on his hands than Hitler did. But he was on Our Side after 1941, and the over-sainted Franklin Roosevelt preferred his company to Winston Churchill’s.
In my life I’ve known people who could be rabidly and rampantly anti-Nazi and anti-Fascist, but at the same time applaud a regime (Communism)that held nearly one-quarter of the world’s population in one great prison, in which escape was heavily discouraged often by AK47s and their copies.
Thanks Paul Corrigan.
My father was in the desert and later Normandy and told many stories of ordinary people on both sides trying to act like humans while caught up in the madness. A little before his death he met an old German man his age, who as it turns out was on the other side in the Normandy landings. They had a beer together and apologized to each other.
Good point about Kim.Com highlighting the excess of our GCSB and an especially pertinent point about the excesses of all political persuasions, not being a Nazi or Fascist is no guarantee of anything.
A very good friend owns a water colour painted by Hitler.
That’s him off my Xmas card list.
Also it might be off interest for some of you to know that the steel helmet was issued to and worn by German fire brigades right up until the 70’s. Also issued to some police units in South Africa……..this Dotcom fella must be a closet white supremacist as well.
But the thing you fail to realise is
wants to remove the UNION JACK off our flag
So who is worse or what is worse
and I am sure AH would agree with JK on that
and you are all nodding with out question aren’t you
there are more important things to protect
for future generations
Just a general question to all and sundry commenting here: Where do you get the idea that what someone materially owns must dictate their political intentions?
Puhoi Roxx OK? Some of us, (present company included)may, as purported be dunderheaded village idiots …. but I strenuous ly object to the suggestion that … we ALL are.
I couldn’t agree more Brian. I owned a copy of Mein Kampf for some years because I was curious to know what Hitler had actually said (ditto Marx’s Capital and Mao’s Little Red Book). Apart from finding it very badly written my main response was that it was a pity that more people had not read it sooner. That way they would have been warned of what they were in for if this nasty piece of work ever gained power. But beyond that it’s also important to recall that fascism was internationally respectable in some quarters prior to the Second World War. A significant body of opinion around the world saw it as a bulwark against ‘Bolshevism’ (incuding the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and the Spanish rebels led by Franco) and it even had followers here, including a proto fascist mass movement called the New Zealand Legion which was it its peak around 1933 and of which subsequently long serving National Prime Minister Keith Holyoake was a member in his younger days.
Oh but surely we just blame poor old Hugh Trevor Roper for Mein Kampf being badly written??